Monday, January 24, 2011

Contradictions in the Bible

Some Apparent Bible Contradictions

God is satisfied / dissatisfied with his works.
Gen 1:31 / Gen 6:6

God dwells / dwells not in chosen temples.
2 Chron 7:12,16 / Acts 7:48

God dwells in light / darkness.
1 Tim 6:16 / 1 Kings 8:12; Ps 18:11; Ps 97:2

God is seen and heard / invisible and cannot be heard.
Ex 33:23,11; Gen 3:9,10; Gen 32:30; Is 6:1; Ex 24:9-11 / John 1:18; John 5:37; Ex 33:20; 1 Tim 6:16

God is tired and rests / never tired and never rests.
Ex 31:17; Jer 15:6 / Is 40:28

God is everywhere present, sees and knows all things / not everywhere, neither sees nor knows all things.
Prov 15:3; Ps 139:7-10; Job 34:22,21 / Gen 11:5; Gen 18:20,21; Gen 3:8

God knows the hearts of men / tries men to find out.
Acts 1:24; Ps 139:2,3 / Deut 13:3, 8:2; Gen 22:12

God is / is not all powerful.
Jer 32:27; Mt 19:26 / Judg 1:19

God is unchangeable / changeable.
James 1:17; Mal 3:6; Ezek 24:14; Num 23:19 / Gen 6:6; Jonah 3:10; 1 Sam 2:30,31; 2 Kings 20:1,4-6; Ex 33:1,3,17,14

God is just and impartial / unjust and partial.
Ps 92:15; Gen 18:25; Deut 32:4; Rom 2:11; Ezek 18:25 / Gen 9:25; Ex 20:5; Rom 9:11-13; Mt 13:12

God is / is not the author of evil.
Lam 3:38; Jer 18:11; Is 45:7; Amos 3:6; Ezek 20:25 / 1 Cor 14:33; Deut 32:4; James 1:13

God gives freely to those who ask / withholds blessings.
James 1:5; Luke 11:10 / John 12:40; Josh 11:20; Is 63:17

God can / cannot be found by seekers.
Mt 7:8; Prov 8:17 / Prov 1:28

God is warlike / peaceful.
Ex 15:3; Is 51:15 / Rom 15:33; 1 Cor 14:33

God is cruel, unmerciful, destructive and ferocious / kind, merciful and good.
Jer 13:14; Deut 7:16; 1 Sam 15:2,3; 1 Sam 6:19; Deut 4:24 / James 5:11; Lam 3:33; 1 Chron 16;34; Ezek 18:32; Ps 145:9; 1 Tim 2:4; 1 John 4:16; Ps 25:8

God's anger is fierce, endures long / is slow and ends quickly.
Num 32:13; Num 25:4; Jer 17:4 / Ps 103:8; Ps 30:5

God commands, approves of and delights in burnt offerings, sacrifices and holy days / disapproves of and has no pleasure in burnt offerings, sacrifices and holy days.
Ex 29:36; Lev 23:27; Ex 29:18; Lev 1:9 / Jer 7:22; Jer 6:20; Ps 50:13,14; Is 1:11-13

God accepts / forbids human sacrifices.
2 Sam 21:8,9,14; Gen 22:2; Judg 11:30-32,34,38,39 / Deut 12:30,31

God tempts man / tempts no man.
Gen 22:1; 2 Sam 24:1; Jer 20:7; Mt 6:13 / James 1:13

God cannot lie / God lies by proxy, sends lying spirits.
Heb 6:18 / 2 Thes 2:11; 1 Kings 22:23; Ezek 14:9

God destroys / will not destroy man because of wickedness.
Gen 6:5,7 / Gen 8:21

God's attributes are revealed in his works / attributes cannot be discovered.
Rom 1:20 / Job 11:7; Is 40:28

There is but one God / there is a plurality of gods.
Deut 6:4 / Gen 1:26; Gen 3:22; Gen 18:1-3; 1 John 5:7

Robbery commanded / forbidden.
Ex 3:21,22; Ex 12:35,36 / Lev 19:13; Ex 20:15

Lying approved and sanctioned / forbidden.
Josh 2:4-6; James 2:25; Ex 1:18-20; 1 Kings 22:21,22 / Ex 20:16; Prov 12:22; Rev 21:8

Hatred of the Edomite sanctioned / forbidden.
2 Kings 14:7,3 / Deut 23:7

Killing commanded / forbidden.
Ex 32:27 / Ex 20:13

Blood shedder must die / must not die.
Gen 9:5,6 / Gen 4:15

Making of images forbidden / commanded.
Ex 20:4 / Ex 25:18,20

Slavery and oppression ordained / forbidden.
Gen 9:25; Lev 25:45,46; Joel 3:8 / Is 58:6; Ex 22:21; Ex 21:16; Mt 23:10

Improvidence enjoined / condemned.
Mt 6:28,31,34; Luke 6:30,35; Luke 12:3 / 1 Tim 5:8; Prov 13:22

Anger approved / disapproved.
Eph 4:26 / Eccl 7:9; Prov 22:24; James 1:20

Good works to be seen of men / not to be seen.
Mt 5:16 / Mt 6:1

Judging of others forbidden / approved.
Mt 7:1,2 / 1 Cor 6:2-4, 5:12

Jesus taught non-resistance / taught and practiced physical resistance.
Mt 5:39; Mt 26:52 / Luke 22:36; John 2:15

Jesus warned followers not to fear being killed / Jesus himself avoided being killed.
Luke 12:4 / John 7:1

Public prayer sanctioned / disapproved.
1 Kings 8:22,54; Kings 9:3 / Mt 6:5,6

Importunity in prayer commended / condemned.
Luke 18:5,7; Luke 11:8 / Mt 6:7,8

Wearing of long hair by men sanctioned / condemned.
Judg 13:5; Num 6:5 / 1 Cor 11:14

Circumcision instituted / condemned.
Gen 17:10 / Gal 5:2

The Sabbath instituted / repudiated.
Ex 20:8 / Is 1:13; Rom 14:5; Col 2:16

Creation / escape from Egypt reason for Sabbath.
Ex 20:11 / Deut 5:15

No work to be done on Sabbath under penalty of death / Jesus broke the Sabbath and justified disciples to do same.
Ex 31:15; Num 15:32,36 / John 5:16; Mt 12:1-3,5

Baptism commanded / not commanded.
Mt 28:19 / 1 Cor 1:17,14

Every animal allowed for food / some animals prohibited.
Gen 9:3; 1 Cor 10:25; Rom 14:14 / Deut 14:7,8

Taking of oaths sanctioned / forbidden.
Num 30:2; Gen 21:23,24,31; Gen 31:53; Heb 6:13 / Mt 5:34

Marriage approved / disapproved.
Gen 2:18; Gen 1:28; Mt 19:5; Heb 13:4 / 1 Cor 7:1, 1 Cor 7:7,8

Freedom of divorce permitted / restricted.
Deut 24:1; Deut 21:10,11,14 / Mt 5:32

Adultery forbidden / allowed.
Ex 20:14; Heb 13:4 / Num 31:18; Hos 1:2; Hos 2:1-3

Marriage or cohabitation with a sister denounced / God blessed Abraham's marriage to sister.
Deut 27:22; Lev 20:17 / Gen 20:11,12; Gen 17:16

A man may / may not marry his brother's widow.
Deut 25:5 / Lev 20:21

Hatred to kindred enjoined / condemned.
Luke 14:26 / Eph 6:2; Eph 5:25,29; 1 John 3:15

Intoxicating beverages recommended / discountenanced.
Prov 31:6,7; 1 Tim 5:23; Ps 104:15 / Prov 20:1; Prov 23:31,32

It is our duty to obey our rulers, who are God's ministers and punish evil doers only / it is not our duty to always obey rulers who sometimes punish the good and receive unto themselves damnation therefor.
Rom 13:1-3,6; Mt 23:2,3; 1 Pet 2:13,14; Eccl 8:2,5 / Ex 1:17,20; Dan 3:16,18; Dan 6:9,7,10; Acts 4:26,27; Mark 12:38-40; Luke 23:11,24,33,35

Women's rights denied / affirmed.
Gen 3:16; 1 Tim 2:12; 1 Cor 14:34; 1 Pet 3:6 / Judg 4:4,14,15; Judg 5:7; Acts 2:18; Acts 21:9

Obedience to masters enjoined / obedience to God only.
Col 3:22,23; 1 Pet 2:18 / Mt 4:10; Mt 23:10; 1 Cor 7:23

There is / is no unpardonable sin.
Mark 3:29 / Acts 13:39

Man created before / after animals.
Gen 2:18,19 / Gen 1:25-27

Planting and harvest always / ceased for seven years.
Gen 8:22 / Gen 41:54,56

Pharaoh's heart hardened by God / pharaoh.
Ex 4:21; Ex 9:12 / Ex 8:15

All / not all cattle, horses died.
Ex 9:3,6 / Ex 14:9

Moses feared / did not fear pharaoh.
Ex 2:14,15,23; Ex 4:19 / Heb 11:27

24,000 / 23,000 died in plague.
Num 25:9 / 1 Cor 10:8

John the Baptist was / was not Elijah.
Mt 11:14 / John 1:21

Joseph's father was Jacob / Heli.
Mt 1:16 / Luke 3:23

Salah's father was Arphaxad / Cainan.
Gen 11:12 / Luke 3:35,36

14 / 13 generations from Abraham to David.
Mt 1:17 / Mt 1:2-6

14 / 13 generations from captivity to Jesus.
Mt 1:17 / Mt 1:12-16

Infant Jesus taken / not taken to Egypt.
Mt 2:14,15,19,21,23 / Luke 2:22,39

Jesus was tempted / not tempted in the wilderness.
Mark 1:12,13 / John 2:1,2

Two different genealogies of Jesus.
Mt 1:1-17 / Luke 3:23-38

Jesus is / is not son of David.
Mt 1:1; Luke 1:32; Rom 1:3 / Mt 22:43-46; Mark 12:36,37

Risen Jesus says touch me / touch me not.
John 20:27 / John 20:17

Jesus preached first sermon on the mount / plain.
Mt 5:1,2 / Luke 6:17,20

John in / not in prison when Jesus went into Galilee.
Mark 1:14 / John 1:43; John 3:22-24

Disciples to go forth with / without staff and sandals.
Mark 6:8,9 / Mt 10:9,10

Woman of Canaan / Greece besought Jesus.
Mt 15:22 / Mark 7:26

Two / one blind men besought Jesus.
Mt 20:30 / Luke 18:35,38

Jesus was crucified at the third / sixth hour.
Mark 15:25 / John 19:14,15

Two / one thieves reviled Jesus.
Mt 27:44; Mark 15:32 / Luke 23:39,40

Satan entered Judas at / before last supper.
John 13:27 / Luke 22:3,4,7

Judas hanged himself / died another way.
Mt 27:5 / Acts 1:18

Potter's field purchased by Judas / chief priests.
Acts 1:18 / Mt 27:6,7

One / two / three / more, women came to sepulchre.
John 20:1; Mt 28:1 / Mark 16:1; Luke 24:10

It was sunrise / before sunrise when they came to the sepulchre.
Mark 16:2 / John 20:1

Two angels standing / one angel sitting, at the sepulchre.
Luke 24:4 / Mt 28:2,5

Two / one angels in the sepulchre.
John 20:11,12 / Mark 16:5

Jesus was to be three / two days, nights in the grave.
Mt 12:40 / Mk 15:25,42,44-46; Mk 16:19

Holy ghost bestowed at / before Pentecost.
Acts 1:8,5; Acts 2:1,4 / John 20:22

Disciples to tarry in Jerusalem / go immediately to Galilee.
Mt 28:10 / Luke 24:49

Jesus first appeared to apostles in room / on a mountain.
Luke 24:33,36,37; John 20:19 / Mt 28:16,17

Jesus ascended from Mount Olivet / Bethany.
Acts 1:9,12 / Luke 24:50,51

Paul's attendants heard miraculous voice and stood / didn't hear and were prostrate.
Acts 9:7 / Acts 22:9; Acts 26:14

Abraham departed for Canaan / unknown destination.
Gen 12:5 / Heb 11:8

Abraham had two / one sons.
Gal 4:22 / Heb 11:17

Keturah was Abraham's wife / concubine.
Gen 25:1 / 1 Chron 1:32

Abraham had one / six sons at 100, with / without providence.
Gen 21:2; Rom 4:19; Heb 11:12 / Gen 25:1,2

Jacob / Abraham bought a sepulchre from Hamor.
Josh 24:32 / Acts 7:16

God promised Canaan to Abraham and seed forever / Abraham and seed never received promised land.
Gen 13:14,15,17; Gen 17:8 / Acts 7:5; Heb 11:9,13

Goliath / Goliath's brother was slain by Elhanan.
2 Sam 21:19 / 1 Chron 20:5

Ahaziah began reign in 12th / 11th year of Joram.
2 Kings 8:25 / 2 Kings 9:29

Michal had no / five children.
2 Sam 6:23 / 2 Sam 21:8

David was tempted by the Lord / by Satan, to number Israel.
2 Sam 24:1 / 1 Chron 21:1

Fighting men of Israel 800,000 / 1,100,000, Judah 500,000 / 470,000.
2 Sam 24:9 / 1 Chron 21:5

David sinned numbering Israel / never sinned except concerning Uriah.
2 Sam 24:10 / 1 Kings 15:5

Penalty for David's sin was seven / three years famine.
2 Sam 24:13 / 1 Chron 21:11,12

David took 700 / 7000 horsemen.
2 Sam 8:4 / 1 Chron 18:4

David bought threshing floor for 50 silver / 600 gold shekels.
2 Sam 24:24 / 1 Chron 21:25

David's throne to last forever / was cast down.
Ps 89:35-37 / Ps 89:44

Jesus is / is not equal to God.
John 10:30; Phil 2:5 / John 14:28; Mt 24:36

Jesus is / is not all-powerful.
Mt 28:18; John 3:35 / Mark 6:5

Law was / was not ended by Christian dispensation.
Luke 16:16; Eph 2:15; Rom 7:6 / Mt 5:17-19

Jesus' mission was / was not peace.
Luke 2:13,14 / Mt 10:34

Jesus did / did not receive testimony from man.
John 15:27 / John 5:33,34

Jesus' witness of himself is true / not true.
John 8:18,14 / John 5:31

Jesus died for friends / enemies.
John 15:13; John 10:11 / Rom 5:10

It was lawful / unlawful for the Jews to put Jesus to death.
John 19:7 / John 18:31

Children are / are not punished for parents sins.
Ex 20:5 / Ezek 18:20

Man is / is not justified by faith alone.
Rom 3:20; Gal 2:16; Gal 3:11,12; Rom 4:2 / James 2:21,24; Rom 2:13

It is impossible / possible to fall from grace.
John 10:28; Rom 8:38,39 / Ezek 18:24; Heb 6:4-6; 2 Pet 2:20,21

No man is without sin / Christians are sinless.
Prov 20:9; Eccl 7:20; Rom 3:10 / 1 John 3:9,6,8

Resurrection of the dead / no resurrection of the dead.
Cor 15:52; Rev 20:12,13; Luke 20:37; 1 Cor 15:16 / Job 7:9; Eccl 9:5; Is 26:14

Reward and punishment to be on this world / next world.
Prov 11:31 / Rev 20:12; Mt 16:27; 2 Cor 5:10

Annihilation for all mankind / endless misery for some.
Job 3:11,13-17,19-22; Eccl 9:5,10; Eccl 3:19,20 / Mt 25:46; Rev 20:10,15; Rev 14:11; Dan 12:2

Earth will / will never be destroyed.
2 Pet 3:10; Heb 1:11; Rev 20:11 / Ps 104:5; Eccl 1:4

Evil does not / does happen to the godly.
Prov 12:21; 1 Pet 3:13 / Heb 12:6; Job 2:3,7

Worldly good and prosperity / misery and destruction are the lot of the godly.
Prov 12:21; Ps 37:28,32,33,37; Ps 1:1,3; Gen 39:2; Job 42:12 / Heb 11:37,38; Rev 7:14; 2 Tim 3:12; Luke 21:17

Worldly prosperity a reward of righteousness and a blessing / a curse and a bar to future reward.
Mark 10:29,30; Ps 37:25; Ps 112:1,3; Job 22:23,24; Prov 15:6 / Luke 6:20; Mt 6:19,21; Luke 16:22; Mt 19:24; Luke 6:24

Christian yoke is / is not easy.
Mt 11:28-30 / 2 Tim 3:12; Heb 12:6,8

Fruit of the spirit is love and gentleness / vengeance and fury.
Gal 5:22 / Judg 15:14; 1 Sam 18:10,11

Longevity enjoyed by / denied to the wicked.
Job 21:7,8; Ps 17:14; Eccl 8:12; Is 65:20 / Eccl 8:13; Ps 55:23; Prov 10:27; Heb 36:14; Eccl 7:17

Poverty is a blessing / riches a blessing / neither a blessing.
Luke 6:20,24; James 2:5; Prov 10:15; Job 22:23,24 / Job 42:12; Prov 30:8,9

Wisdom a source of enjoyment / vexation, grief, sorrow.
Prov 3:13,17 / Eccl 1:17,18

A good name is a blessing / curse.
Eccl 7:1; Prov 22:1 / Luke 6:26

Laughter commended / condemned.
Eccl 3:1,4; Eccl 8:15 / Luke 6:25; Eccl 7:3,4

Rod is remedy for foolishness / there is no remedy.
Prov 22:15 / Prov 27:22

A fool should be / not be answered according to his folly.
Prov 26:5 / Prov 26:4

Temptation desirable / not desirable.
James 1:2 / Mt 6:13

Prophesy is / not sure.
2 Pet 1:19 / Jer 18:7-10

Man's life was to be 120 / 70 years.
Gen 6:3 / Ps 90:10

Fear of man put upon every beast / but not the lion.
Gen 9:2 / Prov 30:30

Miracles proof / not proof of divine mission.
Mt 11:2-5; John 3:2; Ex 14:31 / Ex 7:10-12; Deut 13:1-3; Luke 11:19

Moses was a very meek / cruel man.
Num 12:3 / Num 31:15,17

Elijah went up to heaven / only Jesus ascended to heaven.
2 Kings 2:11 / John 3:13

All scripture is inspired / some scripture is not inspired.
2 Tim 3:16 / 1 Cor 7:6,12; 2 Cor 11:17

Refutation of current religions V; Exodus


Exodus is also a completely impossible tale.

According to the Bible there were 600 000 soldiers which left Egypt to wander the desert for forty years. This would mean that there would be a few million people that left; there are no trace of them!

If 60 000 soldiers left Egypt with their families and wandered for forty years in the desert there would be graves all over the place. A few graves have been found, some from before and some from after the alleged Exodus, none at the time they should have been there.

Looking closer at Exodus we see that as Gmirkin states Exodus is inspired by the Egyptian Historian Merneptah's book of Egyptian history written about 300 BC.

Examining the story itself we see that it does align with the only time in Egypt's early history that there was a great exodus. This was when the Egyptians expelled the Hyksos from their land. The Hyksos ruled Lower Egypt from 1684-1567 BC. These Hyksos were expelled by the Egyptian King Ahmose. (The Ah is added to the name of Mose to try and separate him from Moses).

The tale about the King which floated down the river was borrowed from Berossus however; it was inspired by the great King in the land of Sumer/Accad Sargon the great.

We first encounter Moses talking to a shrub which burns and burns without ever burning up; this is a representation of the Egyptian sun God, Amen Re.

The religionists are attempting to place the Exodus about 1250 BC because that is the only time slot available. After (Ah)Moses expelled the Hyksos the war continued to Sumer, up into present day Turkey and west to Lebanon.

There are a great many tales which indicate it was the borrowing from the Egyptian history tale. The only people in the world which ever claimed to part water was the Egyptians; according to their records priests often parted the seas and even placed one half of a lake on top of the other so a medallion could be retrieved.

We also have the tale about seeing the face of God being impossible or a person would die. This is not quite true; a person can apparantly go blind from staring at the sun. However; standing between some boulders and watching the sun set can be done by all of us.

The Ten Commandments given Moses should be clarified. These Commandments are in Exodus chapter 34. The broken tablets in chapter 20 do not appear until the LXX edition which really came after 370 AD not BC.

About the most boring book I ever read in my life was a doctoral thesis by a theologian. Only one thing stood out among all the useless pages; that was the first time I learned that the epithet for Amen-Re was "I Am That I Am".

The three main Gods in the area at this time were Isis, Ra and El; could it be that a combined God went by the name of all three of these God's?

Do you see how the Is(is)RaElites borrowed the ancient Egyptian tale along with their Gods to produce their history?

YHWH is mentioned as the chief God of the Shasu in material from this time; do you think the Israelites could be the remnants of these Shasu who lived near Jerusalem at this time?

Does it bother you that the Bible is exposed as a falsification of ancient history?

Best regards ras

  1. TheGreatWhiteBuffalo
    It bothers me a great deal that the Bible contradicts itself.

    If one is to follow the teachings of the Bible in truth then the Bible itself should not be a lie it should be historically correct as well as morally correct.

    If you believe in Satan and many people do believe in Satan, and if they also believe the Bible to be inerrant then they are clearly deceived and easily can deceive others.

    There is no truth in them. The truth would set them free. The truth will set them free.

    There is more to be revealed yet Gary; while there may be a God that God is not depicted in the Bible.

    If you think about it that is a good thing, can you imagine worshipping the dude responsible for having his followers slaughter innocents with no more empathy than you do when you swat a fly?

    best ras

    ..what innocents are those? I take it, it's the ones who were so heavily into human sacrifice.. hardly innocent. And before you tell me to prove they were sacrificing people and children, you can porve to me they weren't.

    flowerchilde dark entities..? why is it so easy for people to believe in ghosts.. but not angels?

  2. ondo1015
    I think this stories came from their forefathers tale and told to everyone and then become a Holy story. Whta is believable is from 2000 years from now , like Troy , Columbos , Magellan the Dicoverer, do you see any strange stories from the Galeon ships. They are written in books. Correctly

    These stories came from the forefathers of the Egyptians and the Babylonians; they had nothing to do with the history of the Israelites.

    Best ras

    ..common memories..

    and as far as the bodies of the pursuing army of pharoah, they were in the tumultuous waters.. the tribes wandering in the desert is less fantastic thatn what modern science asks us to believe today..

    The difference between what science asks us to believe and what is stated in Exodus is that there is real evidence for scientific theories.



Back To:

Refutation of current religions IV; Abraham



The table of nations given in the Bible can be ignored as it does not describe the people which lived at the time but rather the nations more than a thousand years later.

Abraham who supposedly lived about 2000 BC visited Philistines which arrived in the Near East about 1200 BC. Abraham visited a Philistine town, Gerar, which was founded about 1000 BC and handed his wife/sister over to its King Abimelech which ruled the city around 850 BC.

Other problems with Abraham abounds, like the use of Camels which were domesticated about 1000 BC and used for transport possibly about a hundred years later.

There is no reason to take anything else from the Abraham tale seriously; it is obviously a Judaic fable which was created to justify the historicity of Israel as an ancient tribe.

As mentioned earlier there are no writings from these people until about 200-250 BC; this explains why the material in Genesis is so far off. Gmirkin identifies the composition of Genesis with Berossus from about 275 BC. Evidence would indicate that about 250 BC was the formation of the Israelite traditions and biblical allegations are nothing but fables.

With this and the other expositions in mind how can anyone follow this Bible as God inspired?

Islam came from Abraham's maid whom he supposedly had a child with; since Abraham is a fable this makes Islam based on a fable or do you have any other information?

Since Genesis is an unreliable fabrication how can anyone employ it as a guide to life?

While there may be rules in this writing which could be useful to a primitive people why should we still employ it today?

Best Regards Ras

  1. michelledarcy
    I totally agree with you here.
    So many of the things written today are not true but based on the opinion of someone that it is amazing that anyone could think the bible was true, let alone the fact that it was written so many years after the events happened.
    I will be interested to see what the bible belivers have to say in response to this one.

    I agree with you darcy...finally there is someone that is stating facts, and not mere opinions to back up a point. I always insist in the fact that many people take sacred text literally and that is a mistake. This is a good proof of what i say: facts show us that those books have a great power and value for those who follow them, but not from a historical point of view..they have principles, but following their literal form.
    I will be following your series of essays about religion!! good work

    ..archaeology has confirmed the historical accuracy of the bible.. verifying many ancient sites, civilizations, and biblical characters whose existence was questioned by the academic world and often dismissed as myths..

    Here's one example:
    - The Hittites (Genesis 15:20) of Canaan, were believed to be mere myth. 1 Kings 10:29 records that they bought chariots and horses from King Solomon, and a well known Hittite was Uriah the husband of Bathsheba. We now know the Hittites were a powerful force in the Middle East from 1750 B.C. until 1200 B.C. But as late as the late 1800's nothing was known of them outside of the Bible.
    It was in the late 18oo's that British scholar, A. H. Sayce found inscriptions carved on rocks in Turkey. He suspected that they might be evidence of the Hittite nation and ten years later, more clay tablets were found in Turkey. A German cuneiform expert named Hugo Winckler investigated the tablets and went to the site to study in the early 1900's.

    His excavations uncovered five temples, a fortified citadel and several massive sculptures. In one storeroom he found over ten thousand clay tablets. One of the documents proved to be a record of a treaty between Ramses II and the Hittite king. Other tablets showed the area to be the capital of the Hittite kingdom, that it's original name was Hattusha, and the city covered an area of 300 acres. The Hittite nation had been discovered!

    The ancient Hittite language is now a central part in the study of the history of the Indo-European languages.

    The story of Sodom and Gomorrah has long been viewed as a legend only.
    But archaeologists discovered a 23-inch thick wall around the city, along with many houses and a large temple. Outside the city were very large cemeteries, showing it had been well populated during the early Bronze Age, about the time Abraham lived.

    They also found that a massive fire had destroyed the city for it was buried under a layer of ash several feet thick.

    The so very ancient walls of Jericho have also been found. Critics claimed the remarkable bible account of Jericho's walls uniquely falling was fantastic fiction, but an archaeologist named, "Garstang" states, "as to this fact then, there remains no doubt: the walls of Jericho fell outwards so completely those outside would be able to climb up and over the ruins of the city." (Paraphrased!) The interesting thing is, when attacked city walls will fall inward not outward.

    Pardon me flowerchilde for not responding to your so called refutation. I found it so absurd I overlooked it.

    The archeological society has completely failed in the confirmation of the biblical accounts, the fact that some of the cities existed is not verification of the stories for that which was told was entirely different from what was found during the digs. The fact that the religious community employs these archeological findings as so called proof is only an indication of the dishonesty of the church.

    The first thing you mention is the Hittites and the fact a Christian would mention the Hittites is beyond comprehension. The Hittites were very well known until the fourth century AD when the Christians burned ad destroyed any and all mention of them along with so much other material. Bragging about your crimes is not very flattering.

    The story about the cities which are regarded as possibly having been referred to as Sodom and Gomorrah in the Bible comes from ancient documents in the kingdom of Mari. These cities have as yet not been found the disaster mentioned which destroyed these cities is also at odds with the biblical account.

    You are correct about the city of Jericho having been found. What you biblical deceivers failed to mention is the fact that the city was completely destroyed by the Pharaoh Ahmose when the Egyptians expelled the Hyksos in the 18th dynasty.

    The Jericho finds was to my knowledge never mentioned as having anything to do with Abraham since the city was razed by the Egyptians and since that time there was never more than a handful of settlers in the city.

    The Hyksos was most assuredly the people depicted in Exodus who fled Egypt. The tale about their fortification and hold out at Jericho is very well documented and leaves no doubt.

    Biblical Abraham supposedly lived before Exodus but the only destruction of the city was by the Egyptians.

  2. jricbt
    You are writing some very good texts, this series : Refutation of Current Religions is very good.

    Good work. Nothing more to say. Expect a lot of flame when you reach Muhammad (if you plan to).

    I have already reached Islam but will have to take it to Mohammed: Islam is based on the tale of Abraham, since Abraham is fable Islam is also and Mohammed must have written down a dream inspired by a vivid imagination.

    Best regards ras

    I think probably mohammed dream of islam had everthing to do with hashish How else would you explain why he married a camel.

    Roz; now I understand why the Muslims treat women the way they do :).


    Me thinks that if I lived in the land of Islam my life expectancy would be very short.

    Funny, isn't it. GnQuesy is writing crap about the Bible, and you guys cannot resist a dig at Islam. People are so scared of the rise of Islam - they resort to anything to attack it.

    Never mind! Dirt belongs in the gutter.

  3. tarachand
    Human menatlity and pyschology have not changes that much since the past millenia or ten. Knowledge may have increased so that most of the instances cited in religious scripture are scoffable today, but ultimately the aim is to set a framework of rules so that humans generally co-exist is peace and harmony.

    Be it Judism, Islam, Christaianity, Hinduism, Shintoism or any other religion, ultimately, the aim is to form a community that will live within the formed framework. How one interprests the laws, the framework is an independent choice, though not always.

    That may be the original purpose; since it doesn't work it is time to say so.


    If it is good in general for humanity, then do break down the glass houses, but slowly and steadily, don't just smash them, you and a lot of others could get hurt

    flowerchilde's not religon that's the problem, it's the bickering between the different beliefs and world view.. And the thinking "we're smart, they're not" - and the problem is human nature is imperfect.. (we're learning good and evil.. (good from evil)

  4. spiderman05
    Muslims recognize more or less all the biblical tales and prophets. Some of these tales are mentioned in the Koran. Therefore, refuting the tales in the bible, systematically refutes the Koran and hence Islam all along. Here, I am not taking any sides. I am just making some basic deductions. My position towards religion now is a big question mark(this includes the 3 monotheistic religions, as I think that they share the same main principles and differ in details. Unfortunately, some people still fight for those little differences).

    I tried to search for a study of Islam from a historical point of view, like the ones that dealt with Judaism and Christianity. Unfortunately, I only found subjective studies, which basically pointed to contradictions between the bible and the Koran, then deduced that the Koran was wrong. I had a hard time following the logic. I would be interested to know if there are any objective historical studies of Islam.

    Finally, I do not quiet understand your statement that Islam is "based" on the tale of Abraham. Arabs consider themselves to descend from Ishmail, the son that Abraham had from his maid Hagar. For me, the tale relates more to the origins of Arabs than to the origins of Islam itself. Am I missing something?

    I will try to read more of your other posts during this weekend.


    The Quran adopted the covenant of Abraham but states that their God Allah made the covenant. The Quran further tells the Muslims that the prophets through Jesus are correct but the final revelation by Allah was made through Mohammed.

    If you search Islam, Abraham, Ishmael, you will get results which state what the Quran states is true. If the Quran states that "hamartia" is true I discard it for it can't be divulged by a God.

    ( Hamartia= missing the barn, from archery practice among the ancient Israelites).


    Writing the Quran or bible is like being on the internet, you can write what you want then retreat to the bathroom and turn on the vent fan and not have to deal with the smell.

    Here is few racists including both of you, you are still against Islam, even i have shared many proofs, Images, Videos, True Stories, but both of you are still against us, i think i am alone on the mylot, but this is truth that Islam mean Peace, some Al-Quaida Agents are not leading Muslims ok, Why don't you misunderstand? i am proud to be Muslims, i am very happy, cant you see the truth? cant you see proofs? cant you see the world? what the hell are you? Islam is Islam, not a joke, both of you are racists..both of you are really blind, huh!...Islam will remain at all, Muslims will survive at all, Islam never taught us to kill innocent people, you always misunderstand us, Al-Qaida is not a whole Religion, you know who trained Osama Bin ladin? USA trained him, USA prepared him, so how can you blame on ISLAM? tell me what USA army is doing in IRAQ and AFGHANISTAN? they are killing innocent people, they are killing young childrens, they are raping innocent females .. huh!

  5. danvino
    Ur, the City of Abrahm (Genesis 11:28-31). Its ruins have been pretty thoroughly excavated by Woolley (1922-34).

    In Abraham's day it was the most magnificent city in the world. Much of the ruins of layer belonging to Abraham's time has been uncovered, so that the actual streets on which Abraham walked may now be seen. The whole story of the civilization and religion in which Abraham was reared has been brought to light.

    Abraham's visit to Egypt (Genesis 12:10-20), is thought, possibly, to have depicted on the tomb of one of the Pharaohs. T

    The whole amazing story of Egypt's early civilization, and its bearing on Biblical history, has been disclosed in the thousands of inscriptions made then, and discovered and deciphered in modern times.

    Hammuraibi's battle with Abraham (Genesis 14:1-6), "Amraphes" (Genesis 14:1), is commonly identified by archaeologists as Hammurabe, the discovery of whose famous Code of Laws has made his name a household word. It must have added greatly to Abraham's prestige that he met in battle and defeated the most famous king then living.

    The "Way of the Kings" (Genesis 14:5, 6). Albright, who once considered the cities here named to have been legendary, because they were so far east of the known trade routes, in 1929 discovered a line of great mound ruins of cities that flourished about 2000 B.C., indicating that it was a well settled region in Abraham's time, and on the direct trade route between Dasmascus and Sinai.

    God Bless.


    Patriachal Cites, mentioned in Genesis in connection with Abraham: Shechem, Bethel, Ai, Gerar. Critics who denied the historical existence of Abraham denied also the existence of these cities that early. But Albright and Garstang found sherds of about 2000 B.C., in the bottom levels of their ruins, showing that they were existent a that time.

    Happy finger typos:

    "Amraphes" should have been "Amraphel"

    "Hummurabe and Hummuraibe" should have been Hummurabi"

    God Bless.


    As it seemed that some people accepted this as a refutation of what I wrote above I will come back to explain how ludicrous the idea that this is a refutation is.

    The fact that the Sumerian city of Ur was excavated by Woolly is very well documented but there were no mention of any Abraham. Ur of the Chaldeans which Abraham came from was Ur of the Sumerians when Abraham supposedly lived. The Chaldeans or Kaldu lived in the city about 950 BC which was also when Gerar existed as well as the kings Abraham visited.

    I mentioned above the fact that there is no indication of Abraham being in Egypt, no evidence exist to that fact and any person that states there is such evidence is dishonest. The cruel fact is that there is no accuracy to the notion of Abraham.

    Regarding Hammurabi being the king of Shinar mentioned in Gen 14:1 is utterly absurd. All you are doing is twisting material around. According to the biblical material Abraham lived 300+ years before Hammurabi and according to the evidence in books such as "Egypt Canaan and Israel in Ancient times" by historian professor Donald B. Redford Hammurabi lived about a thousand years before the rest of the people which can truly be identified to have been referred to in Genesis and encountered by Abraham.

    Your attempt at refuting me by not touching on what I wrote but relating entirely different material was what made me overlook your comments as having any bearing on the conversation.

    When discussing cities which existed about 2000 BC the most important city of all outside Egypt and Sumer was not mentioned at all, the city known as Mari.

    If you desire to present evidence that Abraham existed as fact you have to present material which does not contradict real archeology and science.

  6. flowerchilde
    ..where are you getting your information? Some website on the moon?

    Professor Donald B. Redford in his book "Egypt Canaan and Israel in Ancient Times" supplies verification about practically every statement I made in regards to Exodus. In addition this historian also makes it clear how your "Historical proof" above is nothing but televangelist dreams and lies.

    Why brag about the discovery of the Hittites? The only reason they were ever forgotten was because of the burning and destruction of the early Christians!


    Beyond doubt Abraham must have received from Shem the Story of the Creation and Fall of Man, and of the Flood. He himself had a direct Call from God to become Founder of a Nation through which one day the whole race would be blessed.

    Abraham lived in a society of Culture, Books, and Libraries. He was a man of conviction and leadership. He surely must have made Careful and Accurate Copies of Accounts and Records which he had received from his ancestors; to which he added the story of his own life and God's promises to him; on Clay Tablets, in the cuneiform language, to be handed on for the Annals of the Nation which he was founding.

    ARCHAEOLOICAL NOTE: Abraham's Visit to Egypt. On the tomb of Senusert II, of the 12th dynasty, at Benihassen, who is thought to have been the Pharaoh at that time, there is a sculpture depicting a visit of Asiatic Semite traders to his court. The partriarchal narratives clearly suggest a vigorous commerce with Egypt. (Genesis 12:10-20; 37:25; 43:11; 46:6).


    There is a lot of doubt as presented in the book "Berossus Genesis Merneptah Exodus" by historian Russell Gmirkin. Here it looks as if the Abraham tale was borrowed from the Babylonian history book written by Berossus in the fourth century BCE.

    Your presumptions about Abraham are just presumptions, it is a "What if" without substance, and there are no records of any Abraham. The only covenant anyone had with the God represented by the Tetragammaton before the 12th century BCE was the covenant with the Shasu tribe.

    The fact that there was commerce in the 12th dynasty between Sumer Mari and Egypt is a well known fact. The possibility that there was anyone involved in that commerce named Abram is only speculation and the possibility that such a person held the beliefs reported in the Bible and had a life story as reported in the Bible hinges only on wishful thinking.

  7. Abrahamic
    Hello Gnosisquest!

    Before i start formally and get my information refreshed, I would like to ask what dating method was used for age of the cities. Please try to be precise if you know:-)

    The age of Gerar was established through carbon 14, pottery and correspondence with other cities of the time. Correspondence and city records were what identified the time of the reign of King Abimelech.

    (You may like to read "Egypt Canaan and Israel in Ancient Times" by Prof Donald B. Redford. There are other books also from archeologists and historians which are interesting but Redford is unbiased and professional).

    Despite my 1 hour search on internet I couldn't find the book you suggested for online reading. They are on payment and I can't purchase. I have also ckecked local library but it's not there either.

    Do you have an online version or resource where i can find it? If not then let me know so that i can comment with whatever knowledge I have:-)

    I do not know if the book is available for online reading but a search in the US gives a great many replies. sells used copies for as little as $5.00

    ISBN-10: 0691036063

    ISBN-13: 978-0691036069

    Any library should have this book as it is considered the most reliable unbiased material on the Ancient Near East.

    Do you live in a country where library material is censored?

    My comment:

    At this point in time, your data pertaining to ages of cities and nations might be right but the conclusion and claim you make, that too with certainty, is not right, I'll explain...

    Archaeology hardly enjoys the scientific accuracy (specially about ages)that biology does, let alone more accurate fields of Mathematics and Physics, mainly owning to the following two factors.

    We don't know how much we have found till date and how much we have yet to discover. How much do you think we have known, the available evidence? I'll side with bible maximalists no more than bible minimalists. My point would be, do we know adequately enough? a claim if made will be against scientific theory/definition of fact. An archaeological claim has lesser life than claims of other scientific fields. Many things which were believed and claimed to be untrue came out to be true and many things which were believed to be of some nature came out to be very different.

    Dating methods are never accurate to the point of making claims with "certainty" about them. The problem increases when it is about age of the city or nation, which generally follows the relative dating and not absolute dating. Archaeological History has seen many such claims broken, with later excavations and evidence. Edomites were claimed to exist no earlier than 9th century BCE, but evidences we are getting now may take them back to 11th century BCE. The samples from pyramids retested in 1984 were found to be on average 374 years older than the age of the kings who supposedly built them. Carbon 14 dating is feared to be lesser and lesser acurate in future owing to increased radioactive activity on earth.

    So, let's not jump to conclusions. With the data available we can say, at best, that there is no evidence to existence of Abraham but to say that there is evidence to his non-existence, is not a valid scientific claim. By doing this you will put yourself in line with the atheists, for whom, absence of evidence is evidence of absence. In this scenario, all your gnostic beliefs of Pleroma and demiurge can easily be proven wrong and both of them and soul can be proven non-existent because none of them is scientifically provable or none of them have scientific evidence at all.

    So, to put it straight, If Abraham is non-existent based on evidence you are coming with, then soul is non existent as well; then Pleroma and demiurge are also equally non-existent because we don't have scientific and/or archaeological evidence for their existence.

    May we be guided..:-)


    No jumping to anything is necessary to see that whether or not the dating of the King of Gerar and the city is off even by a few hundred years there is no possibility of alignign the material regarding Abraham with the people and cities he visited. There is not just one error but it is all erroneous so when all evidence indicates mistakes, logically we must deduce that Abraham as depicted in the Bible never existed.

    All biblical legends are based on something; Moses is based on the Egyptian Pharaoh Ahmose, yet there is also included in the material about Moses in the Bible the legend of Sargon the Great from Babylon.

    As mentioned all biblical legends have some basic character or characters that are found to have originated the tale. There is one exception and that is Abraham. No Near Eastern material exists about any person which in any way resembles Abraham. There is one small reference to a possible correlation with a person from Ras Shamras/Ugarit, the Canaanite city of about 1300 BCE, yet this is a very feeble semblance.

    Earlier I mentioned the fact that the people that worshipped the God of the Israelites about 1300 BCE were the tribe known as the Shasu. Yawwu, Yaw, YHWH was the chief God of this tribe. There are no other authentic legends from the Shasu/Israelites in the biblical material so it would seem that the tale surrounding Abraham is the only surviving tale from the Old Shasu. This tale would have been incorporated and altered to fit the new face the Shasu/Israelites that attempted to establish themselves about 250 BCE in order to fit in with the society of the age.

    Something has to have been behind the Abraham legend but since the Shasu at the time were just a small insignificant group of nomads, at times mentioned by the Egyptians, all we know is that while the tale most assuredly was from the Shasu there is absolutely no reason to deign it with any credibility. Furthermore; to base any religion on scant evidence and conjecture is a crime against society.


    You totally missed my point. When absolute dating is found at fault and is changed, all relativistic datings which are in relation to that would have to be changed. when age of pyramids needs to be pushed back further then we will have to readdress all the characters related to it. like I quoted about sampling done in 1984 which suggested pushing back their age by 374 years, now who built them if we need to consider that pyramids were made 374 years earlier than what was thought? either we will also have to take the corresponding characters back at that age or we will have to search a new character.

    ""No near eastern material exists about any person which in any way resembles Abraham""

    To claim that Abraham is non-existent based on this argument is what I was calling Jumping to conclusion, to say that absence of evidence is evidence of absence is not a valid scientific claim. whoever makes it is going against the definition of scientific fact and will be rendered a liar in the eyes of a scientific mind.

    The possibility is that shasu themselves were following script descended to them from Abraham. According to Muslim's Holy book Quran, Moses was not the first person to receive commandments, earlier they were given to Abraham but don't confuse them same as the ones given to Moses. Quran uses the word "suhuf of Ibrahim and suhuf of Musa" meaning scripture of Abraham and scripture of Moses. and Quran many a time, mentioning something testifies that it was in earlier scriptures too, and earliest, to my knowledge, considered is that of Abraham. So it is quite possible that Abrahamic scripture descended to shasu and Moses's was though independent of them but still having similarity with the teachings mentioned in that scripture. I don't agree that Moses or Jews copied it or like that, all divine material has to have similarities changing just for intellectually evolved world and humans.
    Same happened to these materials and scriptures. There is another claim that muslims make, They say that they have a stone bearing foot print of Abraham; that must be checked. No evidence should be discarded.

    So to finalize, There is no evidence of non-existence of Abraham and If somebody is to claim it then soul is also non-existent based on the principle of absence of scientific and archaeological evidence. So simple is the conclusion:-)

    I did not miss your point; your point is not relevant to the discussion. There is no doubt that the King Abraham was supposed to visit ruled Gerar 850 BCE. There is no doubt that the city Gerar was founded just a few hundred years earlier and there is no doubt that the Philistines did not exist in the area until 1200 BCE.

    Biblical Abraham which was supposed to have lived about a thousand years earlier and never even mentioned the city Mari could not possibly have existed as the Muslims, Christians and Israelites would have him.

    There is no evidence anywhere that Abraham existed or that he made any covenant with any God. Abrahams covenant was really no different than numerous other covenants made by a great many Kings of the ANE and also with numerous different Gods.

    Egyptian chronology is never suggested to have been off by any 374 years anywhere in serious documents and I did not desire to bother with it. When it comes to the chronology of ancient Egypt the surviving fragment from Merneptah seems to be the best. For a complete discussion see Donald B. Redford and "Egypt Canaan and Israel in ancient times".

    Saying that Abraham existed because of the unreliable Judaic, Christian and Islamic material is really jumping to conclusions. The Judaic material can demonstrably be shown to be in error about practically everything. Material which is shown to be in error is not employed anywhere as reliable evidence. (Read for example "The Dead Sea Scrolls Bible"; by Abegg, Flynt and Uhlrich.

    Now after you understand that there is absolutely no evidence to support Abraham we can go on and discuss the Egyptian Pharaoh Ahmose who the Israelites borrowed material from and who the Israelites called Moses.

    A stone bearing the footprint of Abraham; great, I would really like to have a talk with the person that was there and saw Abraham create that print. The statement you made is just further evidence that Islam is based on false claims.

    To claim correlation between the existence of Abraham and the soul is also just so much empty talk, I believe my Hindu friends have provided evidence for the soul which you do not have a clue how to refute.

    It is not you I am against, I'm only trying to help you see that Islam is in error so that you can live a life without humbling yourself for a God that doesn't exist.


    You really missed the relevant point. what gives you surety that the ages claimed are right, given the past history of archaeology? were you yourself there to testify that archaeological ages are perfectly right? change in 1 absolute dating because of over all flawed method will drive the whole relativistic dating behind or forward... Now even if right that doesn't prove that Abraham didn't exist. Again Absence of evidence is not the evidence of absence. who could have believed that Edomites existed before 9th century until recently? Who could have believed that isle of youth and petroglyphs could have existed and were not myths. was Sumeria the first civilization?.. I don't understand, how could a person ever make claims with certainity, who claim to know archaeology, based on absence of evidence, which surely is ignorance and ego and nothing else..

    ""There is no evidence anywhere that Abraham existed""

    That's where you step out of decorum of science and step into the dictum of belief:-)

    I have no intention to refute the existence of soul as I believe, it exists but to say that there is scientific observable empirical evidence for it's existence is a lie till date:-) There is no biological, Archaeological, physiological, chemical and any other scientific proof that soul exists. But if someone asks me, I have my own set of evidence for the existence of soul. An atheist can very logically and scientifically refute you or me about existence of soul. While he will refute us and consider himself wise and will declare that he has refuted all believers of soul, what would you think about his claim of refutation...The same answer is quite applicable to your so called refutation that absence of evidence is not necessarily evidence of absence.

    Did you see the civilization of Egypt gnosisquest!? did you see characters of Egyptian civilization yourself? Archaeology is about deduction based on circumstantial evidence, no body has seen anything to make you qualify to mock other people, who havn't seen something they claim existence of!

    Gnosisquest: I am also trying hard and my best to help you to be free from prejudice. I am not against you personally, as a human you have all my respect and regard. what I do criticize however, is your attitude towards research, your disrespect and wrong way to deal and understand the things.

    Absence of evidence is indeed evidence of absence and the notion that it is not so comes from some ill informed person that is afraid.

    When it comes to any subject studied or which have any research done to it there is no subject to study if there is no evidence. There is no evidence for an Abraham so get over it, the material of the Bible dates from eras in history separated by more than a thousand years so the only evidence which exist indicates that it is false.

    The Sumerians may not be the first civilization but since they are the first civilizations that left written records they have the distinction of being the first known civilization.

    Now what on earth does the question about if I have seen the Egyptians have to do with anything? We can look at what is and read their material which gives us a good indication of what was. I do not mock people for believing in something they can't see, I just want to present the evidence which indicate that what is in their imagination when it comes to prophets or God(s) is based on nothing more than imagination and wishful thinking.

    The day Muslims and other radicals stop killing people due to their delusion is the day I and a great many others will stop presenting the proof of the false doctrines. Until that date I'm afraid you are stuck with listening to facts.


    Gnquesy misses the point alot! Get used to it. He blows and blows, hardly ever listens.

  8. bhuvahsya
    You have a deep study as far as religions that have evolved from the middle eastern crucible. I think what you should consider is the writing which are relevant and true in today's context. Balance you can just brush it aside. What matters is your intuition for truth and efforts to understand and seek it.

    Thank you for the good advice:

    The truth as I have found it is that we exist in a fifth dimension of awareness which is apart from the physical universe.

    There has been some material which reference this among the ancients but very little. It was my effort to find out what happened which brought me across all the religious material. People that are subservient to some God are worshipping from a three dimensional point of view even while they perceive from a fourth dimension. Such a state is destructive to the individuals involved and all effort should be made to help them.

  9. eaforeman6
    You are here: Archaeology >> Bible Archaeology

    Bible Archaeology: Cities of Abraham's Time
    Bible Archaeology often begins with the early cities of Abraham and the Patriarchs. Abraham's ancestral home of Ur, a powerful city-state of southern Mesopotamia, is mentioned four times in the Old Testament. Located in modern Iraq, Ur has been excavated on and off since the 1800s and has revealed a wealth of information about the pagan culture of Abraham's time. In Genesis 11:31, Abraham's father, Terah, moved his family north to Haran, an ancient city that exists in modern-day Turkey. Also found in that same area of Turkey are villages that still have the names of Abraham's grandfather and great grandfather, Nahor and Serug (Genesis 11:22).


    It makes no difference that the cities existed when what the bible states is something entirely different from the truth.

    Biblical archeology if anything has proven that the biblical material is in error since all details of the bible reflect life a thousand years or more after the bible states it existed.

    I am quite well versed in the excavations of Ur, seat of the worship of the moon God as was the city Haran.

    Erm... it does make a difference!

  10. Adnan_Ahsan
    Friend don't follow his blind opinions, he is not a blind from his visible eyes, but he is a big blind from his mind and his heart, he does not respect any religion, he is a big abuser...i request all of you, don't follow him, don't think what he is saying, just follow what your heart says..thanks

    When the people that look at the evidence and truths are called blind it will be the blind that are leading the world.

    Too many blind people are leaders which are why the Muslim and American and other societies are in the sad shape they are in today!

    Christians, Muslims, Hindus, All are better than you, you are a not a good person, i did not say that proofs are blind, for your kind information, proofs never be blind, you are really blind, i hope these members will not follow you, they have sense, whereas you are a senseless old man, you follow your old senseless taught, i knew that you will not see any proof, nor read my discussions, but i hope other members will follow the truth, they will see my discussions, they will see that proofs, i have shared, hey you doubt in Islam, you just search Islamic miracles on YouTube, you will see many, because Its a real Religion...i hope other members will not follow you..


    I read your discussions and I hope others see what you call proof!

    People whose minds are not clouded through the daily prayers will be able to easily see the terror behind what you call truth so you are destroying your cult by providing information.

    you have gone mad!

    watch it if you can

    The person that look for evidence and knowledge is not the one who is mad:

    It is the person that guide his life by superstition and hear-say which is mad!


    Ha ha, hear-say. This is one thing your full of.

  11. Makro74

    Ha ha ha,

    Your posts are amazing, again, for the sake of laughter I am finding more and more of your absurd material. Ha ha ha

    Cherry picking again!!!

    'the table of nations....can be ignored.....describes...the nations more than a thousand years later'. You make a statement of ignorance, and an assumption, but no evidence for that fact.

    'Abraham lived about 2000BC....Gerar founded 1000BC....850BC handed to wife/sister'
    'Camels domesticated around writings about Israel till about 200-250BC'
    'Camels....used for transport about hundred years later'
    Assumption 'Judaic fable ... to justify ....Israel as an ancient tribe'
    'EVIDENCE would indicate...'.

    The above are examples of passages that are typical of Cherry picking literal and petty writings of a man who is deep in proving the wrongs of faith. Moreover, assimptions are made with no evidence, just cherry picked dates of assumption taken out of context. Using the words 'Evidence would indicate' is vague at best.

    For your kind information, if what I am reading is what GN is implying - then this is the qualification.

    Genesis and books of the Old Testament refer to tribes of Prophets and saints in a metaphorical sense. Genesis quotes that Adam was the first man on the Earth and lived for around 970 years! For GN's benefit (not that it would do any good), I will explain. Let me point out the above quotation is not word for word and I have not cited a reference but the point I make is enough.

    In the Genesis example, Adam is said to be the first man and living for around 970 years. If GN, we take this as literal, we can see it is absurd, as no human life can ever last this long. What is the reference to? Moreover, the first part suggests that Adam was the first Man on the planet. This then would throw out the theory of evolution and the decendants of primates. Further, the Bible states Adam to be around 4000-BC, whereas Man is known to be around 1-2million years.

    If we take GN's view, we would dismiss the Bible as he does, but in a more petty and complicated way.

    But, the metaphorical decoding of faith and the trust in your God to open your eyes, and of course the brain providing more intellect comes to more rational conclusion. The 970 years refers to Adam's era, the time his law was on his people from God. This then reconciles the first man and the dates of empirical research and biblical evidence. For Adam to have legacy and to lay down a law, there must be a set of people to whom he is preaching. Therefore, he cannot be the first man but the first law-bearing messenger from God. So Adam was not around 1-2million years ago, but was around a few thousand years ago.

    Applying this to Abraham, the Bible also implies and age or era for Abraham, and the practices that his followers in that era. However, the dates are not always accurate in the Bible since the biblical books have been adjusted over time and vary between book to book. They also vary from copy to copy.

    However, the jist is still there. Using GN's methodology, we would spend most of our lives to troll over every petty writings and be none the wiser, since we cannot or will not read between the lines.

    On the issue of Islam, if GN is saying Abraham is fable, then his logic would conclude that Islam is based on this notion. How untrue and narrow minded that it is?

    Of course, Gnquesy, is not correct, Abraham had followers in their masses and everybody of faith recognises the significance of Abraham. GNQuesy is litrally a typical writer of comments that are desperately contrary to sane people.

    He digs for evidence in remote areas where it seems nobody will look, but are fable petty areas of out of context and often inaccurate assumptions. When interrogated or refuted, his stance is one of 'I am right you are wrong'.

    You didn’t have to spend that much time writing to prove you have no knowledge about facts; here are some books I suggest you read by historians and researchers: “Egypt Canaan and Israel in Ancient Times” By Prof Redford. Then I recommend “The Dead Sea Scrolls Bible” by Abegg, Flynt and Ulrich.

    I could recommend a whole lot of other books but these should do for a start.

    I did not write the above post for those that have no idea at all about ancient history which was why I did not provide references.

    The Israelite legend of Abraham was an allegory, for the information on how the Israelites put together a couple of ancient books read: Berossus Genesis and Merneptah Exodus by Russell Gmirkin.



    Well done, if I was adressing my points to you, then you only need two lines to dismiss your ramblings. However, the world at large fortunately does not read from your twisted approaches.

    Which proves my point. Testing your arguments in your style, contesting them and reasonably arguing against them - this is why there is little factual credibility with you. You cannot respond to people with reasoning and, rather you belittle their faith. This is why you get the abuse you do.

    You can rave on, but you will be dismissed.

    Yes; I will be dismissed by all those that have no knowledge and refuse to look at any studies which would show how absurd their claims are.

    Why would I worry about those people that do not


Back To:



  1. Refutation of Current Religions Part I (Introduction)

  2. Refutation of Current Religions Part II.(Early Genesis)

  3. Refutation of Current Religions Part III,(The Flood)

  4. Refutations of Current Religions Part IV(Abraham)

  5. Refutations of Current Religions Part V(The Exodus)


Back To:

Sunday, January 23, 2011

Refutation of current religions part III, The Flood



The Flood tale is supposedly told by people all over the world therefore Christians have been saying it is proof that the tale in the Bible is correct.

In reality the Tsunami in the Indian Ocean after the earthquake in 2004 is why flood tales are told all over the world; plate tectonics is a fact and movement of these plates cause earthquakes and often floods in low lying areas.

The boat depicted in the Bible, if built today employing all the modern technologies, would not be seaworthy. A flood that came about by raining for forty days and nights covering the earth would make the rains in a hurricane seem like a small sprinkle. Such rains would have shredded a boat into the tiniest wood chips in a few seconds.

The Babylonian tale is retold very well in "History begins in Sumer" by Prof S. N. Kramer. The only difference between the biblical tale and the Sumerian tale is the number of Gods, the reason for the flood and Enki whispering the instructions to Ziusudra, the Sumerian Noah, through the wall and also the amount of animals.

The boat described in the Bible is not seaworthy and would not last intact for forty day's if the seas were calm. Timber large enough to make such a ship would come apart when fastened together by its own weight if such timber could be found.

The biblical flood supposedly occurred about the time the Giza pyramid was built in Egypt.

Now the biblical tale is illogical, it is impossible and the reason for the story has a very logical explanation through the borrowing and rewriting of the Sumerian original. The Sumerian story was also written perhaps as long as 3000 years before the Israelites wrote anything.

My question is; in lieu of this evidence can anyone believe the biblical flood story and if so please explain how it is possible.

Could someone also please explain to me how a life is enriched by believing fables and the imagination of primitive people is more valuable than fact.

Best ras

  1. Thomas73
    The story of the biblical flood is indeed quite unbelievable. And if it were true, it would make God guilty of committing a worse genocide than Innocent II, Hitler or Stalin, to name just these three. Who would want to worship such a blood-thirsty tyrant?

    As for your second question, fables and happy god-stories may psychologically help some people to get through life with some sort of discipline, as well as avert their fear of death.

    Just my twopence...

    Thank you Thomas; as usual your observations are very astute.

    Best ras

    ..the way it goes, is.. "the world was only evil" - so it was a genocide, but of a bunch of hitlers, etc.. lest all be descended from them and the planet be destroyed by man much too soon.. (for this drama/lesson to unfold in its entirety).

  2. michelledarcy
    I think that some of the fables in the bible teach us intersting lessons and are good reflections on how we should behave.
    However teaching them as truth is just a way of misleading people. If people don't question them, then it makes me wonder what sort of people are in this world. If they believe everything they read then what hope is there for us all.

    For me a great portion of the population resemble mushrooms; this is what you get from keeping them in the dark feeding them bulls*it.

    Best ras

    "The knowledge of the secrets of the kingdom of heaven has been given to you, but not to them. 12Whoever has will be given more, and he will have an abundance. Whoever does not have, even what he has will be taken from him. 13This is why I speak to them in parables: "Though seeing, they do not see; though hearing, they do not hear or understand. 14In them is fulfilled the prophecy of Isaiah:
    "'You will be ever hearing but never understanding; you will be ever seeing but never perceiving. For this people's heart has become calloused; they hardly hear with their ears, and they have closed their eyes. Otherwise they might see with their eyes, hear with their ears, understand with their hearts and turn, and I would heal them.'

    "But blessed are your eyes because they see, and your ears because they hear. For I tell you the truth, many prophets and righteous men longed to see what you see but did not see it, and to hear what you hear but did not hear it." Matthew 13:11-17

    (although these verses are about using parables, it could also applied why it uses fables)

    using different kind of speech is a very effective way of teaching, like parables, metaphor, illustration and fables. it reveals what really is in the heart of the listeners, whether they are just hearing things or really want to know more what the topic is all about. it also reaches the heart of the reader or of the student.

    Why create excuses for the biblical flaws?

    The Christinan and muslim cults are the worst disasters to befall humanity and making excuses for them will continue to prevent sanity.

    Best ras

    Gnosis, your response made no sense.. I'm disappointed to be called a mushroom who believes in sh*t. You do not know as your beliefs are any more viable than anyone else's.. where's your proof that what you believe is true? If you're basing it on man's modern science, that's just another 'god' of the people.. yet as myth and fables, they are highly imaginative, I'll give 'em that..

    It's hard to be nice, or even continue a conversation with someone who calls you stupid, and basicly a blind cow. [Like the 'science' crowd ain't following the herd!]

  3. Kaeli72
    There is scientific evidence that there was a great flood waaaaay back when. Before the flood, it had never rained upon the earth at all.

    Noah was far from being "primitive". The way he built the ark was a marvel in itself. How were the pyramids built? There's no way that one can be built today even with all of our technologies, so why shouldn't an ark be any different?

    I am not going to try to convince you or anyone else that the bible is true and/or correct. You have your mind made up, I should know. I've tried to convince people that eating pork is bad for you, but their minds are made up. No amount of biblical AND medical charts will sway them otherwise.

    I see; so you ignore what you don't have any answers for and invent new answers to cover obvious flaws.

    Are you saying trees grew stronger back then?
    Are you saying the earth was flat back then so it didn't take as much water to cover it?

    You can't compare the Egyptians with the Israelites. The Egyptians were an established culture about three thousand years before anything affiliated with the Israelites appears.

    Best ras

    You should be aware that Noah was not an Israelite, and the events described in the Flood narrative allegedly took place a couple thousand years (is my memory and math is right) before the Israelites were ever anywhere near Egypt.
    Correct, and the ancient Israelites may be a misnomer; the Israelites quite possibly did not come about until the third century BC.

    It is also quite possible that before this time they were known as Shasu.

    Best ras

  4. Chiang_Mai_boy Is it possible that myths of a great flood are echoes of early man trying to explain the resulting flooding that occurred during the end of the last ice age. It is indeed sad that people rely on stories invented by Bronze Age tribesmen, to explain their existence, rather than avail themselves to the hard won knowledge we have today.

    Chiang; do you remember the people crying about how God was punishing us after the flood in 2004?

    The hurricane which took New Orleans saw the same clamoring about the God punishing his sinners.

    All natural disasters still bring out the primitive superstitions in some people. I believe that whenever there have been disasters there has been invented a reason for it.

    The flood mentioned by the Sumerians may have come from any type of disaster however a tsunami from an earthquake in the ocean makes most sense to me.

    Floods could have been told about flooding after the last ice age. It is indeed sad when so called modern people rely on superstition by the Bronze Age people to explain their lives.

    Best ras

  5. CraftyCorner
    jesus taught in parables. i think that the noah busines and his ark, if not a built on story of a less profound event involving a less dramatic story of a family and their critters could be an example of lesson by parable. also, people didn't know all of the world. knowlege of china and america wasn't around yet back then, people's 'worlds' were much smaller, so the 'world' being flooded...could have been a somewhat sizable farm?

    It is amusing how Christian modify their stories as more and more knowledge becomes available.
    Yes, the flood story in the Bible has to do with a few farms getting flooded in Sumer. The story is Sumerian from possibly 4000 BC or earlier. The Babylonians adopted the tale into their legend.

    The Babylonian Berossus, writing the history of the Babylonians in about 275 BC created the material from which the Israelites got the flood story from.

    Best ras

  6. FaaNee
    well i think people who believe those story will say that the flood, the ark , the rains etc is all god's will and can't be understand by human. in my opinion since the bible say this event happen more than 30 century ago!! so there is no way we can proove it. so why bother??

    The reason to bother is a desire to wake people up. All those people wasting this life in a dream world is a sad situation. People forcing their children into the same dream world is a crime.

    Best ras

  7. kaysoon
    If you take scriptural text at face value, you're heading for the abyss of dementia. It's all allegory. Ancient peoples were childlike in outlook and the myths and fables were primarily to lure them into believing in the invariable triumph of good over evil. When dogma is at the steering wheel, remember that logic and rationale are always required to take a back seat. No insult or belittlement intended. Merely stating an incontrovertible fact.

    I don't believe scripture at all. I will show how there is nothing in the Bible which can be believed as allegory or anything else.

    Best ras

  8. mansha
    I believe in it but do not believe in the stuff regarding the boat thing. I feel yes the flod did came as so many religious scriptures describe it in their own interpretations.
    I will post some link on this to prove that the civilisation did exist before great floods.
    The evidence for a global flood is overwhelming. More than 250 cultures worldwide have Flood traditions that are similar to the Biblical account. This cannot be dismissed as coincidence. One famous one is the legend of Gilgamesh, who survived a great flood with his family by building a boat and filling it with animals. The Greek version of this legend is similar. Tribes around the world like the Mayans and Aborigines also have legends of a great flood.

    Also supporting the Flood is geological evidence. Sedimentary rock is found all around the world, and is created by water. The last 3,000 feet of Mount Everest are made of sedimentary rock and crushed shells. Fossilized clams and other fossilized sea life have been found at the top of Mount Everest.

    Only thing I disagre to is that they built a single boat and escaped it. My theory is not one but many boats either helped to save them or that there was some high ground to which they could escape though flood was overwhelming but few of them did reach the safety with may befe of their animals and some rations. The story of it must have been told and retold many times before it lost its concrete evidences. By word of mouth things do get lost in between and may be there was one man call it by any name who had put together the idea of building boats and all his tribe helped build it so he was credited with saving them all. Later as the tribe grew and dispersed over the generations the story was repeated by those who have heard it from their parents and so on and it became a tale of faith over the generations.
    What do you think, am I close?
    There is evidence for floods having happened in practically all low lying areas on the planet. These did not happen at the same time, so there is no evidence for a world wide flood.

    The legend of Gilgamesh is a Sumerian tale and the same tale also talks about the flood. Gilgamesh was not a part of the flood Gilgamesh came after in Sumerian legends.

    Gilgamesh sought out Ziusudra, the Sumerian Noah for the Gods had given him eternal life after the flood. (Ziusudra was named Ut-Nepistjim by the Babylonians; Gilgamesh was named Nimrod by the Israelite Bible). Gilgamesh desired the secret to eternal life from Ziusudra and his wife. Ziusudra lets us all know that eternal life is not all that great.

    Sedimentary rocks are found in many mountains all over the world. The reasons for these are the same as the tsunamis. Tsunamis are caused by earthquakes under the surface of the sea. The plates which the surface of the earth is made from continuously move. East Africa and South America was once one land mass. Plate tectonics explain what separated them. When there is collision of these plates on land the one plate moves on top of the other. The plates which collided to create the Himalayas are well known by science.

    Sorry Mansha; I do not think you are close; the scientific explanation is far more plausible. The flooding after the plates moved in 2004 killed a great many people. Religious people said this was because God wanted to punish them for their sins. They were not close either.

    The plates on which we live have to move for the earth to continue to support life; some life comes to an abrupt premature cessation because of this but that is part of the prize we have to pay.

    Best ras

  9. ipissakusina
    in some point, the bible account about the flood (written in genesis by the way, not in exodus) is more likely impossible. but believing that there is God that wants to save the righteous family from the flood to wash away those sinful, non-repenting pagans, is enough reason why the ship kept stable until the flood is gone. there are alot of religious beliefs through out the world that stating the same idea, about a 8-membered family that were saved during the flood, as a matter of fact, the chinese character for ship literally means "eaith souls in a vessel". Jesus Christ, which have alot of evidence that he existed more than anyone else, also proved that this bible account is true and trustworthy. he qouted about this account at least twice in his gospel.

    here are some points to consider it's authenticity:

    SPECIFIC: First, unlike those popular or any legends & fairy tales that begins their story with "Once upon a time", the Bible is so spicific when reporting a certain historical event. For instance, the bible states: "In the six hundredth year of Noah's life, on the seventeenth day of the second month—on that day all the springs of the great deep burst forth, and the floodgates of the heavens were opened." Gen. 7:11 NIV

    SCIENCE: it also harmonize with science, well supposed to be because it came from God, right? although it is not a scientific textbook, it is accurate regarding that matter!
    Job 26:7 "He stretcheth out the north over the empty place,[and] hangeth the earth upon nothing." KJV. For thousands of years people believed that the earth was held by a giant, or four elephants on top of a gigantous turtle, or something like that! but Job accurately stated above almost 5000 years ago before men actually went to the moon and saw that earth is "Hanging upon Nothing"!
    Isaiah: 40:22 "It is he that sitteth upon the circle of the earth" Magellan discovered Philippines because he wants to prove that the earth is not square like six hundred years ago! but the Prophet Isaiah stated that verse thousands of years ago, and it is also accurate!

    ARCHEOLOGY: Daniel 5:1-30 stated that the last ruler of Babylon was Belshazzar. since there was no other mention about him outside the bible, it underwent to criticsm that this man never existed! but until 19th century, cuneiforms were discovered in southern Iraq called "Verse Account of Nabonidus" containing the prayer for the health of Son of King Nabonidus, Belshazzar!

    PROPHECY and HISTORY: There are so many prophecy in the Bible that's also proven by our modern history, but i'll give you my favorite: Daniel 8:20-22 "The two-horned ram you saw represents the kings of the Medes and Persians. The he-goat is the king of the Greeks, and the great horn on its forehead is the first king. The four that rose in its place when it was broken are four kingdoms that will issue from his nation, but without his strength." The Babylon's world power was replaced by Medo-Persia, which gave way to Alexander the Great, "the king of the Greeks, the first king" to spreadhead the Greek world power. But after his death, four of his generals, namely Ptolemy, Seleucus, Cassander and Lysimachus.

    THEME: The Bible was written by 40 different men; sheperd, fisher, doctor, lawyer, tax collector, judge, general, psalmist,king & servant; in a period of about 1,600 years but is has only one theme overall: The Sovereignity of Jehovah (Yahweh in other translations), and His Kingdom through Jesus Christ.
    Genesis 3:15: "And I shall put enmity between you (The Serpent, Satan) and the woman and between your seed and her seed. He will bruise you in the head and you will bruise him in the heel." NWT
    Exodus 6:3: "And I appeared unto Abraham, unto Isaac, and unto Jacob, by[the name of] God Almighty, but by my name JEHOVAH was I not known to them" KJV
    Psalms 83:18: "That they may know that thou alone, whose name is Jehovah, Art the Most High over all the earth." ASV
    Matthew 6:9-10: "Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name. Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done in earth, as[it is] in heaven." KJV
    Psalms 110:1: "The affirmation of Jehovah to my Lord (Jesus): `Sit at My right hand, Till I make thine enemies thy footstool'" RB
    Revelation 21:3-4 "And I heard a great voice out of the throne saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he shall dwell with them, and they shall be his peoples, and God himself shall be with them,[and be] their God: and He (God) shall wipe away every tear from their eyes; and death shall be no more; neither shall there be mourning, nor crying, nor pain, any more: the first things are passed away"

    Where did life came from? (Acts 17:24-26) Why are we here? What is the meaning of life? Is it just to live a few years and then die? Gen. 1:27,28; Rom. 5:15, John 17:3, Psalms 40:8. These questions can't be answered by the Theory of Charles Darwin....

    Proverbs 2:1-2,5-6: "My son, if thou wilt receive my words, And lay up my commandments with thee; So as to incline thine ear unto wisdom, And apply thy heart to understanding; Yea,if thou cry after discernment, And lift up thy voice for understanding; If thou seek her as silver, And search for her as for hid treasures: Then shalt thou understand the fear of Jehovah, And find the knowledge of God." ASV
    1 timonthy 6:9 "But those who want to get rich fall into temptation and a snare and many foolish and harmful desires which plunge men into ruin and destruction." NASB
    Matthew 7:12 "All things,m therefore, that you want men to do to you, you must likewise do to them."
    Matthew 13:34-35 "Love one another. As I have loved you, so you must love one another. 35By this all men will know that you are my disciples, if you love one another." NIV
    2 Timothy 3:16 "All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness" KJV

    With all of these proofs, what is your conclusion?
    I know it was Genesis; the Exodus was a mistake I can't fix here.

    Some of the things you write here I have already covered other places; the rest will be covered later.

    In order to understand what I have been talking about read the other posts I have written earlier refuting the biblical accounts and Jesus.

    I have no desire to repeat here what I already have covered.

    I admire your work though and desire to refute it all but in its proper place.

    Genesis by the way was copied by the Israelites from the Babylonian historian Berossus who in about 275 BC wrote "Babylonia".

    There is no evidence for the God of the Israelites until we get to the Shasu.

    Best ras

    is it really copied from babilonian writer or the other way around? and why do you have more faith to those pagan writers than the bible? what made them better? are they not also written by men and refutable?
    i thhink with your state of mind like that, even if there are evidence that the bible is trustworthy, you really won't accept that fact. even if god hinself descend from heaven and tell you that he exist and the bible is his inspired book, you won't believe him, because you don't want to. i know you're trying to have an open mind, but open it a little bit more wider.

    Kusina; it really is all from a Babylonian writer up until this point. I do not have any more faith in the Babylonians than the Israelites I just will not change facts to adhere to fantasy.

    Earlier you mentioned Balthazar, the son of Nabonidus; you said the Bible was the only place where the facts regarding this and the fall of Babylon was preserved.

    Pride is vanity, especially in cases like these: The only reason others had forgotten this was because the early Christians destroyed all ancient material, they burned not only the library in Alexandria but destroyed all similar places of learning throughout the known world.

    That others had forgotten what happened and followed the altered Christian version is something for which the Christians should be immensely ashamed, not proud!

    Best regards ras

    you got me wrong, i said belzhasar, the last ruler of babylon, was only mentioned in the bible, where in early centuries no proof of existance anywhere in history. but during 19th cetury, several cunieform was discovered in southern iraq now known as Verse Account of Nabonidus." There described the prayer regarding the health of the eldest son of Nabonidus, Belzhazar. Thus, proving that the bible is accurate.

    the bible also encourages us to educate our selves, and education has a big role in worshipping God. but take note that the bible also predicted or prophesised that after the apostles dies, there will be apostacy, people claiming that they are christians but they do not follow what the bible really teaches, you can tell by their fruits, in deed and doctrines. please read this matthew 13:24-30, 36-43

    I know all about the material discovered which mentions the regent Balthazar.
    Balthazar was never king, he ruled in his fathers stead while he was mad. His father was Nabonidus, the last ruler who angered Marduk by worshipping Nanna. Marduk was the God responsible for turning the Babylonian empire over to the Persians. Daniel is a Babylonian book which was borrowed and altered by the Israelites.

    You got me wrong; there existed widespread knowledge about this up until the Christians burned the last Greek school in the seventh century and destroyed the last of the books. Christianity has nothing to be proud of; your mentioning about any NT writings regarding the Bible is also useless as examples. There are no complete NT Gospels until more than 300 years after Jesus.

    The crimes Christianity committed against humanity by burning the ancient wisdom literature is immeasurable.


    the book of daniel, of course the entire bible as well, has been examined & debated inside the COURT so many times, and until now there are more and more evidence discovered that it is accurate & reliable.

    you've missed these simple verses:
    Job 26:7 "He stretcheth out the north over the empty place,[and] hangeth the earth upon nothing." KJV.
    Isaiah: 40:22 "It is he that sitteth upon the circle of the earth"
    let's say these verses were written in 1700, so what? men haven't believe on those words until men got to the moon and saw that earth is hanging upon nothing and sephere. how did Job & isaiah knew that? there is no better explanation than they're inspired by the greatest source of knowledge, the God.

    i just can't help it but notice that it seems you believe and accept babylonian writings as a fact, and you always say that bible is altered and came from babylonians, it doesn't make any sense at all. and on top of that, you haven't prove anything yet.

    i am aware about those so called christians, and just like what i'm trying to say, you will know that they are true christians by deeds. those so called christians are far from how christians should be. those very "christians" tried to destroy the bible itself. but the bible is alive and it endure that until now we have copies.

    just like you, i think religion is like a sinking ship. you want people to jump out of it, but you don't have a life boat.

    What court are you talking about? The Bible has never been debated in a court.

    The Greeks knew that the earth was round before the writing of the Pentateuch. Since the Pentateuch could not have been written before 270 BCE the Bible is relatively new. The Christians employed the Book of Enoch to tell that the world was held up on pillars.

    I am not saying the Babylonians were correct; Genesis was written from the historical rendering by Berossus called "Babylonia".

    Who needs a life boat? Humanity is like healthy people walking with the aid of Crutches that do not reach the ground. All that needs to be done is throw away the crutches and straighten the back.


  10. islander7
    As usual a supurbly logical debunking of biblical nonsense.
    My line had been in another discussion that the ark would have had to have been illogically immense in order to house all those pairs of animala! So obviouly a fable.

    Thank you Islander

  11. mobyfriend
    Something interesting: There is a guy in my country who is rebuilding the ark in accordance with all the biblical measurements. Now anyone seeing this boat could see that no way it is seaworthy and yet he intends to sail with it.

    Frankly I cannot give a reason why logical reason should be more valid than believing fables or the imagination of primitive people. For some logical or illogical reason the human mind needs both.
    Many cultures have a flood story. As I rememmber there is even a Hindu version in which the deity changes into a fish and pulls the boat on land.
    Personally I think those tales were not told to be about reality but about the lesson coming from the tale. What about our modern day Lord of The Rings?
    Logical reasoning versus mythology I cannot see how you can end that just by proving that some evens may or may not have taken place.

    btw I have no idea what Best Ras means.

    Thank you Moby:

    Your story about the person building a boat reminds me of a priest which was given the Darwin award. This is actually a true, verified story. This priest or pastor was giving a sermon about Jesus and mind over matter. In order to show that the Bible was correct he was going to walk on water. Poor fellow didn't know how to swim and ended up buried. Some people would rather die than think.

    There is nothing wrong with fables; it is when fantasy is thought as fact that it goes too far.

    Best Regards Ras

    flowerchilde .
    .the fables (yes fables, and fantastic ones at that) of modern man, when world resources get low, will result in the survival of the fittest aided by the hand (and modern marvels) of man.. If you think believing in hard cold materialism alone will change human nature.. well, I'm comparing the 50 and 60's to today.. and frankly I ain't seein' it. Society is on the slippery slope to barbarism.. OR, if you have an alternate spiritual teaching that's been handed down.. how is its myths any more viable than any others? But I can wait for that answer later in your threads..

  12. dodoguy
    Very interesting to observe the dynamics of human arrogance at work in real time.

    The Flood was indeed an actual event - it is recorded in every human culture around the world, even in Australian Koori culture.

    And it's SO easy to assume the role of debunker - but how precisely do you debunk eye-witness accounts of an event" Of course, simply deny them.

    Many Saintly mystics, having the God-given faculty for looking into the future and the past, have given first-hand accounts of the mayhem that took place at that time. Suffice to say that the actual history of the world bears little resemblance to what popular "science" would like to have us believe. In short, we know far less about the world than our self-appointed academic superiors would like to think.

    As for the glory of "science", it really is a very ego-bound discipline - not something that I would give too much weight to. How old did you say the Pyramids were? Now we have that settled, perhaps we can all get some sleep (not!). You forgot to tell us who the head architect was...

    According to "science" we're living in an "expanding universe" - and now that "science" has spun that particular fairy story, it can't extricate itself from it even though the Big Bang Theory (Big Bang Dogma, I would say) has already been incontrovertibly proven FALSE. And anyone who is willing (note that most important word - "willing") to go dig up the facts of the matter can confirm that for themselves.

    According to "science", the Sun (and all the stars) is a big fluffy nuclear furnace. Except there's a problem with that - NASA has satellite photos of the Sun's very BLACK, very SOLID surface. But once again, "science" is unable to extract itself from the stellar fairy story that it has been so busy weaving all these years.

    Do we detect a pattern emerging here?

    Whenever I observe anyone prattling on about what was and wasn't the case all those thousands of years ago, based on their application of "science" to the matter, in my books that's about the time to go read a good book - any fairy story will do, because it's likely to be both more credible and more entertaining.

    If you consider that scientific conclusions are based on observed facts and tested theories, I really don't understand why you want to blind yourself and prefer to live in a dream world of fairy tales. You remind me of those children who play hide-and-seek and just cover their eyes thinking, "if I can't see anyone, then no one can see me". It's sweet, but not very effective.

    As long as you're comfortable with your beliefs, fine. But please don't try to distort the truth for others, and find 'facts' to suit your conclusions.

    Thomas; you are too kind.

    Dodo; it is a crime to distort reality and teach children lies as facts. It prevents them from developing their mental abilities as they constantly try to align their discoveries with nonsense.

    Best Ragards Ras


    It is my humble opinion that you are a clown of the first order.

    We have here the classic case of the Cabal supporting each other, congratulating each other and patting each other on the back for being so "learned" as to recite a series of well-worn mantras.

    The mutual admiration club, you might say.

    The blind leading the blind.

    I say "blind" because you are so bold as to dismiss ("debunk", is that how you'd prefer it to be expressed?) the position of other people as "ignorant" (ie, the opposite of you "learned" folks) without even a thought to considering the possibility that there are alternative world views to your own, derived by intellects (gasp! dare we say it?) at least the equal of your own. With one glaring exception - other people are prepared to accept tangible evidence which you choose to dismiss.

    Other people have world views based very soundly on facts which you choose not to see.

    Selective blindness in support of a predetermined paradigm.

    Even if I went to the trouble of digging up the specific information which substantiates each and every thing that I have stated (which I won't be doing, because as the saying goes, you can take a horse to water...) that selective blindness would persist, and the personal attacks and the facade of virtuous concern for the kiddies would no doubt intensify.

    Of course, this is fully expected, as this is the way of modern "science".

    Here's something to ruffle your feathers, just for the hell of it - the sky on Mars is blue. But don't trouble yourself to check - we all "know" it's red, now don't we?

    But that's alright, because it's a free world, and you're not on Mars, are you?

    I'm glad you appreciate my writing, dodo. Your affirmations are however a bit dangerous. Mistaking your fantasy for science is indeed dnagerous and led once some people to declare that there were such things as superior and inferior races.

    What you're writing is not only shallow and meaningless -- the sky of Mars red? Hmmm... please! -- but potentially harmful for feeble minds who could simply take your words at face value, whereas they are in no way substantiated by evidence of any kind.

    Thomas, Thomas, Thomas...

    Now you have moved to demonizing the people who don't conform to you viewpoint?

    You actually have the temerity and the audacity to insinuate that people who don't agree with you are Nazis?

    And you have dismissed evidence that you have never even seen - even though it is freely available to anyone with the initiative to go and dig it up.

    Your train of logic left the rails a long long time ago in a galaxy far far away.

    And I'm quite happy for it to stay there.

    I merely stated that people like you who turn false science into ideology are dangerous.

    On the other hand, I must say that you should write novels. Your wild imagination would make you the next Stephen King. Just don't pretend that your work of fiction conforms to any reality, though.

    Guys, I think that this is a discussion and not an insult trading ground. Each of you have a right to your own opinions, but a sincere request, as mature adults please do away with the insults and the sarcasm and......

    Sorry to butt in, it is good to know what other's think about something that you have a firm opinion about, so do trade knowledge from your perspective, not insults.

    No offense intended to anyone.

  13. spiderman05
    I read Samuel Kramer's book too and the chapters about the creation of Eve and the flood as well as the analogy between Sumerians' cosmogony and early Judaism. I am more inclined to believe in historical facts too. The flood story was told in different many cultures including Mesopotamia, Persia and India. Floods were common is Mesopotamia at that time. The land between the Tiger and Euphrates rivers is flat and it did not take much rain to get it flooded.

    For those interested in studying the bible from a historical point of view, I also recommend John Romer's book "Testament: The Bible and History". I am in the middle of reading this book. Actually the book is divided into 2 parts. The first part deals with the old testament and the second part with the new testament. I'm done reading about the old testament and started reading about the new one. Romer tried to analyze the bible texts from historical and anthropological points.

    On the other hand, as Romer himself mentioned (and as some members did in this discussion), some messages conveyed by the bible have great values and the tales might have been used to just strike the minds of the masses.

    Thank you Spiderman:

    Another good book if you desire to delve deeper into the history of the near eat is Prof. Redford's "Egypt Canaan and Israel in Ancient Times".
    For those that desire to know what the Old Testament said 2000 years ago read: The Dead Sea Scrolls Bible" by Abegg, Flynt and Ulrich; quite an eye opener.

    I would also recommend a book on Ugarit/Ras Shamras about the Canaanites 3300 years ago but do not recall the author.

    Regards Ras

    Thanks for the recommendations. I took not of the titles you suggested.

  14. juliocstryfe
    3 nitpicks.

    1- The descriptions in the Bible were translated from a language which didnt have proper measurements. The Muslim Hadith themselves note that people will try and make up imaginary measurements for the ark, but none ill do justice to thousands of years of

    2- Sumarian Noah? Strange, his name was Gilgamesh, not Noah. Noah does not exist in ANY Sumerian tale, and his tale were different. Dont make up facts please?

    3- Supposedly occured? Historian´s estimated date, might be, or not be, the correct time it happened.

    4- How can life be enrichened and what can we learn from this "fable?" Seeing as society STILL ignores the calls of the wise, and is leading itself to self-destruction shows pretty much that we havent learned enough, instead we waste time comparing Noah to Gilgamesh.

    Wrong; the Sumerian Noah was Ziusudra, the Babylonians changed his name to Ut-Nepistjim. The talk about him in the epic of Gilgamesh (Nimrod in the Bible) has to do with a plant which granted eternal life.

    You are right in that society still ignores the calls of the wise; the scientists.

    Like children that do not desire to give up the belief in Santa Claus Christians ignore knowledge and clling to their make believe world.


    "society still ignores the calls of the wise - the scientists..."

    Excuse me while I go outside and puke for about 5 hours...

    Here's a true story, just to put things in perspective - a certain Catholic Saint (can you hear the "scientists" brains shutting down out there, kiddies?) who was also a mystic (and also a woman - strangely enough, most of the mystics were and are) related her observations of future events, ostensibly not too far into our future now... note that I said "future events" not "vision", because we don't want to give the "scientists" too much to chew on here, now do we?

    Anyway, to cut a long story short, she described how a terrible war with bombs of indescribable destructive power would be fought all across the Northern Hemisphere, and that "scientists" would learn how to take the "essence of a man" and blend it with animals so that human-pig hybrids would be used as soldiers on the battlefields (anyone worried about the Terminator scenario is an optimist) and finally, after the world had been bombed back into the stone-age, the common folk would hunt down and kill the "scientists" like wolves because of the pain, horror and destruction that had been brought down upon humanity with their "creations".

    This lady lived a couple of centuries ago.

    But she's right.

    You only have to observe the incredible arrogance on display by the "learned" "scientists" here.

    They've got it so badly wrong that it's like living in the twilight zone. Or as suggested in the Bible, a time when everything will be the opposite of what it appears.

    dodoguy o
    and another thing...

    there's some real nasty types waiting on the other side of our temporal reality - and that's not a make-believe scenario, even if you're a "scientist"...

    trying to dismiss such a prospect because it's not to our liking would be akin to playing Peter Pan - "clap if you believe"...

    it's a whole lot easier to avoid being seen if you don't want to be seen, and the ones you're hiding from don't want to see you either...

    Dodo; is reality so terrible you have to cling to your fantasy world?

    How many times must you all profess the terror which will come about due to some prophesy which never never omes about before you realize there is something seriously wrong with your superstitions?

    Best ras

    Superstitions indeed...

    this is actually getting to the heart of things - the meaning of life, the universe & everything - which is all very simple and self-evident once seen, but impossible to detrmine beforehand.


    You have a 60-odd year window of stability and security in your material paradigm - and you have the luxury of indulging delusion in that timeframe if you so choose.


    Wait until the moment of standing at the edge of the abyss.

    A greater reality awaits each of us, outside the constraints of time and space, and outside any bounds of our current material experience.

    Anyone who has been so fortunate as to to have encountered even the most insignificant of creatures from those places has the benefit of foresight, and a very, VERY healthy respect for what's in store for each of us beyond this limited existence.

    Western "science" is built upon thousands of collective egoes. It sustains itself, it feeds on itself, it propagates and entrenches false beliefs - and persecutes any detractor, despite its errors.

    But Western "science" is constrained to the same temporal window that the "scientist" passes through, and is left behind. Western "science", flawed, corrupt and self-serving as it is, has no "answer" to the larger reality, which all of us must face, "scientists" included.

    Very funny Dodo:

    The nasty types you mention must be the "Archons" mentioned by the Gnostics.
    These wise people from before Christ and who Jesus belonged to stated that the Judaic God was a demigod. They called him Samael and Ialdabaot, Samael is most descriptive.


    Gnosisquest - I find your version intriguing, and the version Ive studied is quite different, but sadly google search is not helping me, any literature/sites you could suggest that I could find more information on this Sumerian Noah? However I stand fasst by the innacuracy of the date and measurement.

    Dodoguy - Although Ive seen Chinese traditinal doctors curing stuff that science still has trouble doing, I wouldnt wite Western science yet, we´re talking a collectine opinion based on 500 years of research here, and the fcat that ANY scientific fact mus be proven and shown to peers before its accepted leaves quite little room for mistakes.

    Julio; search for Noah's original name, Ziusudra, on internet and you will find a myriad of scholarly and layman's articles on the Sumerian flood.

    Best regards ras

    Ok, I shall read through after I finish giving lessons, then I shall get back to you.

    Very interenting indeed, the similarities abound-

    "Man of Shuruppak, son of Ubar-Tutu,
    Destroy thy house, build a vessel,
    Leave thy riches, seek thy life,
    Store in thy vessel the seeds of all life."
    "When dawn broke
    A cloud as black as night rose from heaven's
    thin it Adad bellowed!
    Shullat and Khanish marched at the head,
    Nergal tears away the mast.
    He comes, Ninuta, he spurs the attack,
    The Anunnaki are bearing torches,
    Their brilliance lights up the land,
    Adad's tumult reaches the skies,
    All that is bright is changed into darkness."

    Interesting, although aside from the ending, where Uta-Napishtim became a god at the end, Noah´s ark seems quiitethe same. To top that, I´ve also found traces of the same flood story-

    -The Greek version- the gods flooded the world and
    destroyed the human race because of it's wickedness. However,
    Deucalion and his wife were granted safe passage through the
    destruction by building and provisioning an enormous wooden
    chest, after which they repopulated the world by throwing over
    their shoulders stones, which were magically transformed into

    _Egyptian version- Osiris was a god with almost identical attributes
    to Dionysus. He was murdered by his brother and his body, locked
    in a wooden chest, was set afloat on the sea on the seventeenth
    of the month, the same day as that given for the beginning of the
    Biblical flood. Here, the passage is symbolized by
    the journey between life, death and rebirth.

    All just reinforced the fact that it did happen. Why?

    1) Historians to make the Bible seem wrong, pushed the date to thousand years after, proving nothing.
    Now as I mentioned before, the historians date ignored the book´s date, and its wrong. Now we Muslims date Nuh(noah)´s ark as something happening before the first civilizations appeared, Muhammad (PBUH) said: "The period between Adam and Nuh was ten centuries." (Sahih Bukhari). According to Genesis 5 (new Revised Standard Version), Nuh was born one hundred and twenty six years after the death of Adam. By both accounts Nuh (noah) would predate the historian´s date by a millenia. The historian´s dates you gave are pretty off, and contradicting both muslim and Christian views.

    If we´re to take the Muslim date (1000 years after the first man) or the Bible´s date, Nuh predates the Sumerians, Egyptians and Greeks, thus the fact that they also mention it, merely shows its authencity, and that it was recorded by not one but many civilizations reinforce the fact that the flood happened and that Nuh existed, since only the historian´s date

    2) On how it floated, etc-
    On how it survived and floated and moved? Sura 11:41 says: "And he (Allah) said, 'Ride ye in it; in the Name of God it moves and stays!", do it was under the command of god, and under his control.

    Now if we´re going to refute the Bible´s passages by changing their dates, we´re not proving anything at all, but that some people are too desparate to refute it.

    Now can we refute the arc by the Bible´s date? Or the Q´ran´s? Because by both it happened before the Sumerians, and the fact that 6 different civilizations wrote about it makes it seem more authentic than most happenings in historical books, doesnt it?

    Julio; did it not occur to you that what all of this actually proves is that people all through the ages have invented explanations to fill their gaps in knowledge?

    The Israelites did not write down anything until after they had access to the "Babylonia" written by Berossus about 275 BCE. The other tales of explanation were not fact, it is doubtful that any of the Greeks or Egyptians for example believed these tales of flood.

    When Mohammed composed his version of the Gods and legends about thirteen hundred years ago he just rewrote the Judaic legends to suit himself.

    There is nothing divine in either Judaism or Christianity or Islam. If you want to see something there which is divine try placing a mirror over the page.


    I see no proof for, nor against it, but the fact that the scientific arguement pushed the date to 10s of millenia later does sepeak out against the writer, doesnt it?

    I´m not claiming my faith as a scientific fact, but science isnt going to refute anything by changing dates that have been shown, then saying aha! It happened later.

    And again, much of whats in history books have been written from lesser accounts, and the Flood is mentioned too often not to have happened, unless scientists can prove 100% that there wasnt any flood, ever, the subject of the arc remains in science like the existence of god.

    Nobody can prove he exists, nobody can porve he doesnt exist.

    *shrugs*.. anyway, great conversation mate.

    To me, as tsunamis have happened all over the world at different times in history there is a very simple explanation for the flood stories. It is not often that a supernatural story supersedes a natural explanation; as a matter of fact I have yet to see it happen.

    The difference between science and religion is that scientists alter the story to accommodate the evidence; not the evidence to accommodate the story.


  15. smrohitsm
    I am not a firm believer of religious books. I like to look at it from a technical and historical point of view. But somehow I believe about the world wide floods thingy being true. As simply too many cultures have mentioned it in their books.

    Even ancient hindu texts also mention such a flood, but dont talk about any ennormous boat or something. I think the boat theory is an exageration of some real life event. May be some guy must have made a boat that was huge by the standards of those times. And he must have saved some community with it.

    One thing to be known about religious texts is that, they usually talk about what some real life events seemed like to the writer. For instance, in the hindu epic Ramayane, it is written that Lord Ram fights the moster Ravan in the sky. I think they must have fought on some elevated ground and the writer has only written his feelings about how it seeme dto him.

    I beleive in Jesus being able to cure people without giving any medicine. As we have an alternate method of treatment called "Pranic Healing" in India. I works without any physical contact betwen the healer and the patient. Also no medice is involved. May be Jesus was a pranic healer. The evidence of its working can be seen with people being Healed.

    So I think instead of dismissing religious text as myth. We must first understand them. May be the events really took place, But they are just exagerated by the writers. To understand the reality, you must first beleive its true, then if possible refute it with contradiction theory.

    All the best.

    There is absolutely good reasons to look deeper into these ancient tales in order to picture what the ancients were attempting to relate.

    When it comes to the universal flood stories I am convinced that these were different stories about tsunamis and other flooding occurring at different times in history. One other advantage to this belief is that I do not have to explain where all this water went after the flood was over.

    Best regardsw ras

  16. tarachand
    As time progresses, the size of the universe, of mans envirnoment keeps on increasing. There was a time when the knowledge of the known world was limited - Even Africa was quite unexplored. Then came discoveries of America, Australia, other lands, the size of humanity's environment expanded, till today we find that we are just a small obscure planet revolving around a small obscure star which is placed in an obscure arm of its galaxy, which itself is obscure within it's cluster......

    What I am trying to say is that for the peoples of long ago, the world may have been limited to a small island, which was once flooded...... and to them it was the flooding of their entire world. 40 days of rain could also be explained by distortions due to the stoties being told and retold....

    It would be easier to collect the vsisible animals in an island than those present all over the world....

    The story of flood is found in many religions and regions, even the Matsya and many other Purans and scriptures (Hinduism) speak of Narayan taking the avatar of a huge fish - the ship was tied to the horn of the fish with a mighty serpant serving as a rope, the fish sheltered the ship that was quite dwarfed by it's (the fishes) size....

    Yes Tarachand your observations are well founded. I have no problem with legends, fables and myths; what I have a problem with is when these are taught children as facts and children are even punished when questioning these fables.

    Best regards ras

  17. LightninStrike
    wow gnosis, this series of posts about religion are incredible...they confront sacred texts with reality and at least it makes you think a bit, to both believers and non believers.
    Obviously all about the ark etc is a fable, nobody would give that story any credit from a rational point of view, at least the way it's told in the bible. Once again, there is nothing wrong with the fables, except when you back up your dogmas with the literal words of the bible.

    Thank you Lightning:


  18. funfreak2k2
    You said the boat would tear apart and it cant withstand the 40-day rain and the flood. you believe it or not, the boat still exists in russia, the siberia region. of course i dont properly remember the exact region, but it still is in russia. many pilots have claimed that they have seen the boat struck in the snow mountains. this is a verifiable fact.

    you are true that a boat would tear apart into pieces and i say, God's help is beyond any reason or physical laws.

    cartoons do teach children in a different way

    1. The Ark is supposed to have landed on Mount Ararat, in Turkey.
    2. If such a ship was still intact, corroborating the legend, the whole world would know about it.

    What will you come up with next? That the tower of Babel has been spotted by pilots flying over the Bermuda triangle? Don't confuse figments of your imagination with reality, please.

  19. Adrenochrome
    I believe, if my memory serves me well, that tests carried out around the Middle East have detected evidence that the 'world' (as the Sumerians would have regarded it, though geographically from the Meditarranean to the West, Gulf to the East, Himalayas/Urals to the North, and sea to the South) occured circa 4000BC.
    I believe that there is also a theory that the Sumerian Gods (Nephilim - who strangely reappeared, and then disappeared during Christian texts in the Middle Ages, when the social pecking order of Angels was established, then abolished, hence, Archangels, Seraphim, Cherubim etc)fell out with each other regarding humankind. We were bred to serve the Nephilim, just as we bred oxen and horses for such service. Some of the Nephilim felt we deserved freedom, and would still work for them if treated benevolently. Others wished for the status quo to be maintained. Following a war which resulted in the flood, and almost all human life being destroyed, the benevolent Nephilim re-bred us using a female Nephilim to bear the children, so we are all descendants of the Nephilim, and all Gods children.
    I, of course, believe that the flood was simply due to glacial erosion, the world coming out of its Ice Age, the glaciers reaching back over the Northern mountain ranges, and, as the Med is little more than a gigantic lake (bottle-necked at Gibraltar), the land could not drain quickly enough. Very scientific, though I confess that I feel the Sumerian story to be much more dramatic and romantic.
    I notice that for all his sailing, Noah supposedly only trabelled a couple of hundred miles. How the Bible would have seemed different if he'd landed in Canada!
    Religion does not enrich life, especially when used to end life and fight wars, but, psychology, it can help some people justify their impoverished and hard lives, hoping for the rewards in Heaven that life will inevitably not supply.

    Seeking real answers to whom and what we are could give us all the support we need.

    The belief in fables and other people's wishful thinking and basing life on this puts the entire human race at risk.


    Adrenochrome (736) ranked 865 out of 6,244 in religion 4 years ago
    I agree, and feel that the ambition of leaving the world in a fit state for future generations is a worthy enough justification for existence.

  20. flowerchilde
    Noah spent one hundred years building that boat! and remember the animals of the time would be less than today.. as now we have the many separated traits as kinds and breeds.. That's all I know.. three decks (layers) and a hundred years.. and "pitched inside and out" - doesn't sound illogical to me. It also says "it rained for forty days and forty nights" and "the fountains of the deep flowed" as in artesian? Lots of power surely, but totally typhoonish.. I don't see that.. I do think however that it left much debris, aged it, and formed the sediment layer the evolutionists have been so fixated on..

    I believe the Giza pyramid is pre-deluge.. along with the sphinx.. but that's just my own thought..

    Why even consider the biblical account; there is a nearly exact copy written 3000 years earlier which was copied by Babylonians which was copied by the Israelites. Defending the biblical fable makes no more sense than defending Aesop's fables or other allegories misconstrued in later ages.



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