Refutation of current religions IV; Abraham

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Gnosisquest

The table of nations given in the Bible can be ignored as it does not describe the people which lived at the time but rather the nations more than a thousand years later.

Abraham who supposedly lived about 2000 BC visited Philistines which arrived in the Near East about 1200 BC. Abraham visited a Philistine town, Gerar, which was founded about 1000 BC and handed his wife/sister over to its King Abimelech which ruled the city around 850 BC.

Other problems with Abraham abounds, like the use of Camels which were domesticated about 1000 BC and used for transport possibly about a hundred years later.

There is no reason to take anything else from the Abraham tale seriously; it is obviously a Judaic fable which was created to justify the historicity of Israel as an ancient tribe.

As mentioned earlier there are no writings from these people until about 200-250 BC; this explains why the material in Genesis is so far off. Gmirkin identifies the composition of Genesis with Berossus from about 275 BC. Evidence would indicate that about 250 BC was the formation of the Israelite traditions and biblical allegations are nothing but fables.

With this and the other expositions in mind how can anyone follow this Bible as God inspired?

Islam came from Abraham's maid whom he supposedly had a child with; since Abraham is a fable this makes Islam based on a fable or do you have any other information?

Since Genesis is an unreliable fabrication how can anyone employ it as a guide to life?

While there may be rules in this writing which could be useful to a primitive people why should we still employ it today?

Best Regards Ras

1. michelledarcy
   I totally agree with you here.
   So many of the things written today are not true but based on the opinion of someone that it is amazing that anyone could think the bible was true, let alone the fact that it was written so many years after the events happened.
   I will be interested to see what the bible belivers have to say in response to this one.
   
   LightninStrike
   I agree with you darcy...finally there is someone that is stating facts, and not mere opinions to back up a point. I always insist in the fact that many people take sacred text literally and that is a mistake. This is a good proof of what i say: facts show us that those books have a great power and value for those who follow them, but not from a historical point of view..they have principles, but following their literal form.
   I will be following your series of essays about religion!! good work
   
   flowerchilde
   ..archaeology has confirmed the historical accuracy of the bible.. verifying many ancient sites, civilizations, and biblical characters whose existence was questioned by the academic world and often dismissed as myths..
   
   Here's one example:
   - The Hittites (Genesis 15:20) of Canaan, were believed to be mere myth. 1 Kings 10:29 records that they bought chariots and horses from King Solomon, and a well known Hittite was Uriah the husband of Bathsheba. We now know the Hittites were a powerful force in the Middle East from 1750 B.C. until 1200 B.C. But as late as the late 1800's nothing was known of them outside of the Bible.
   It was in the late 18oo's that British scholar, A. H. Sayce found inscriptions carved on rocks in Turkey. He suspected that they might be evidence of the Hittite nation and ten years later, more clay tablets were found in Turkey. A German cuneiform expert named Hugo Winckler investigated the tablets and went to the site to study in the early 1900's.
   
   His excavations uncovered five temples, a fortified citadel and several massive sculptures. In one storeroom he found over ten thousand clay tablets. One of the documents proved to be a record of a treaty between Ramses II and the Hittite king. Other tablets showed the area to be the capital of the Hittite kingdom, that it's original name was Hattusha, and the city covered an area of 300 acres. The Hittite nation had been discovered!
   
   The ancient Hittite language is now a central part in the study of the history of the Indo-European languages.
   
   Also:
   The story of Sodom and Gomorrah has long been viewed as a legend only.
   But archaeologists discovered a 23-inch thick wall around the city, along with many houses and a large temple. Outside the city were very large cemeteries, showing it had been well populated during the early Bronze Age, about the time Abraham lived.
   
   They also found that a massive fire had destroyed the city for it was buried under a layer of ash several feet thick.
   
   The so very ancient walls of Jericho have also been found. Critics claimed the remarkable bible account of Jericho's walls uniquely falling was fantastic fiction, but an archaeologist named, "Garstang" states, "as to this fact then, there remains no doubt: the walls of Jericho fell outwards so completely those outside would be able to climb up and over the ruins of the city." (Paraphrased!) The interesting thing is, when attacked city walls will fall inward not outward.
   
   

   Gnosisquest
   Pardon me flowerchilde for not responding to your so called refutation. I found it so absurd I overlooked it.
   
   The archeological society has completely failed in the confirmation of the biblical accounts, the fact that some of the cities existed is not verification of the stories for that which was told was entirely different from what was found during the digs. The fact that the religious community employs these archeological findings as so called proof is only an indication of the dishonesty of the church.
   
   The first thing you mention is the Hittites and the fact a Christian would mention the Hittites is beyond comprehension. The Hittites were very well known until the fourth century AD when the Christians burned ad destroyed any and all mention of them along with so much other material. Bragging about your crimes is not very flattering.
   
   The story about the cities which are regarded as possibly having been referred to as Sodom and Gomorrah in the Bible comes from ancient documents in the kingdom of Mari. These cities have as yet not been found the disaster mentioned which destroyed these cities is also at odds with the biblical account.
   
   You are correct about the city of Jericho having been found. What you biblical deceivers failed to mention is the fact that the city was completely destroyed by the Pharaoh Ahmose when the Egyptians expelled the Hyksos in the 18th dynasty.
   
   The Jericho finds was to my knowledge never mentioned as having anything to do with Abraham since the city was razed by the Egyptians and since that time there was never more than a handful of settlers in the city.
   
   The Hyksos was most assuredly the people depicted in Exodus who fled Egypt. The tale about their fortification and hold out at Jericho is very well documented and leaves no doubt.
   
   Biblical Abraham supposedly lived before Exodus but the only destruction of the city was by the Egyptians.





2. jricbt
   You are writing some very good texts, this series : Refutation of Current Religions is very good.
   
   Good work. Nothing more to say. Expect a lot of flame when you reach Muhammad (if you plan to).
   
   

   Gnosisquest
   I have already reached Islam but will have to take it to Mohammed: Islam is based on the tale of Abraham, since Abraham is fable Islam is also and Mohammed must have written down a dream inspired by a vivid imagination.
   
   Best regards ras

   
   
   roztredtoes
   I think probably mohammed dream of islam had everthing to do with hashish How else would you explain why he married a camel.
   
   

   Gnosisquest
   Roz; now I understand why the Muslims treat women the way they do :).
   
   Ras

   
   roztredtoes
   Me thinks that if I lived in the land of Islam my life expectancy would be very short.
   
   Makro74
   Funny, isn't it. GnQuesy is writing crap about the Bible, and you guys cannot resist a dig at Islam. People are so scared of the rise of Islam - they resort to anything to attack it.
   
   Never mind! Dirt belongs in the gutter.
   



3. tarachand
   Human menatlity and pyschology have not changes that much since the past millenia or ten. Knowledge may have increased so that most of the instances cited in religious scripture are scoffable today, but ultimately the aim is to set a framework of rules so that humans generally co-exist is peace and harmony.
   
   Be it Judism, Islam, Christaianity, Hinduism, Shintoism or any other religion, ultimately, the aim is to form a community that will live within the formed framework. How one interprests the laws, the framework is an independent choice, though not always.
   
   

   Gnosisquest
   That may be the original purpose; since it doesn't work it is time to say so.
   
   Ras

   
   
   tarachand
   If it is good in general for humanity, then do break down the glass houses, but slowly and steadily, don't just smash them, you and a lot of others could get hurt
   
   flowerchilde
   ..it's not religon that's the problem, it's the bickering between the different beliefs and world view.. And the thinking "we're smart, they're not" - and the problem is human nature is imperfect.. (we're learning good and evil.. (good from evil)



4. spiderman05
   Muslims recognize more or less all the biblical tales and prophets. Some of these tales are mentioned in the Koran. Therefore, refuting the tales in the bible, systematically refutes the Koran and hence Islam all along. Here, I am not taking any sides. I am just making some basic deductions. My position towards religion now is a big question mark(this includes the 3 monotheistic religions, as I think that they share the same main principles and differ in details. Unfortunately, some people still fight for those little differences).
   
   I tried to search for a study of Islam from a historical point of view, like the ones that dealt with Judaism and Christianity. Unfortunately, I only found subjective studies, which basically pointed to contradictions between the bible and the Koran, then deduced that the Koran was wrong. I had a hard time following the logic. I would be interested to know if there are any objective historical studies of Islam.
   
   Finally, I do not quiet understand your statement that Islam is "based" on the tale of Abraham. Arabs consider themselves to descend from Ishmail, the son that Abraham had from his maid Hagar. For me, the tale relates more to the origins of Arabs than to the origins of Islam itself. Am I missing something?
   
   I will try to read more of your other posts during this weekend.
   
   Cheers.
   
   

   Gnosisquest
   The Quran adopted the covenant of Abraham but states that their God Allah made the covenant. The Quran further tells the Muslims that the prophets through Jesus are correct but the final revelation by Allah was made through Mohammed.
   
   If you search Islam, Abraham, Ishmael, you will get results which state what the Quran states is true. If the Quran states that "hamartia" is true I discard it for it can't be divulged by a God.
   
   ( Hamartia= missing the barn, from archery practice among the ancient Israelites).
   
   Ras

   
   
   roztredtoes
   Writing the Quran or bible is like being on the internet, you can write what you want then retreat to the bathroom and turn on the vent fan and not have to deal with the smell.
   
   Adnan_Ahsan
   Here is few racists including both of you, you are still against Islam, even i have shared many proofs, Images, Videos, True Stories, but both of you are still against us, i think i am alone on the mylot, but this is truth that Islam mean Peace, some Al-Quaida Agents are not leading Muslims ok, Why don't you misunderstand? i am proud to be Muslims, i am very happy, cant you see the truth? cant you see proofs? cant you see the world? what the hell are you? Islam is Islam, not a joke, both of you are racists..both of you are really blind, huh!...Islam will remain at all, Muslims will survive at all, Islam never taught us to kill innocent people, you always misunderstand us, Al-Qaida is not a whole Religion, you know who trained Osama Bin ladin? USA trained him, USA prepared him, so how can you blame on ISLAM? tell me what USA army is doing in IRAQ and AFGHANISTAN? they are killing innocent people, they are killing young childrens, they are raping innocent females .. huh!



5. danvino
   Ur, the City of Abrahm (Genesis 11:28-31). Its ruins have been pretty thoroughly excavated by Woolley (1922-34).
   
   In Abraham's day it was the most magnificent city in the world. Much of the ruins of layer belonging to Abraham's time has been uncovered, so that the actual streets on which Abraham walked may now be seen. The whole story of the civilization and religion in which Abraham was reared has been brought to light.
   
   Abraham's visit to Egypt (Genesis 12:10-20), is thought, possibly, to have depicted on the tomb of one of the Pharaohs. T
   
   The whole amazing story of Egypt's early civilization, and its bearing on Biblical history, has been disclosed in the thousands of inscriptions made then, and discovered and deciphered in modern times.
   
   Hammuraibi's battle with Abraham (Genesis 14:1-6), "Amraphes" (Genesis 14:1), is commonly identified by archaeologists as Hammurabe, the discovery of whose famous Code of Laws has made his name a household word. It must have added greatly to Abraham's prestige that he met in battle and defeated the most famous king then living.
   
   The "Way of the Kings" (Genesis 14:5, 6). Albright, who once considered the cities here named to have been legendary, because they were so far east of the known trade routes, in 1929 discovered a line of great mound ruins of cities that flourished about 2000 B.C., indicating that it was a well settled region in Abraham's time, and on the direct trade route between Dasmascus and Sinai.
   
   God Bless.
   
   Dv
   
   Patriachal Cites, mentioned in Genesis in connection with Abraham: Shechem, Bethel, Ai, Gerar. Critics who denied the historical existence of Abraham denied also the existence of these cities that early. But Albright and Garstang found sherds of about 2000 B.C., in the bottom levels of their ruins, showing that they were existent a that time.
   
   danvino
   Happy finger typos:
   
   "Amraphes" should have been "Amraphel"
   
   "Hummurabe and Hummuraibe" should have been Hummurabi"
   
   God Bless.
   
   Dv
   
   

   Gnosisquest
   As it seemed that some people accepted this as a refutation of what I wrote above I will come back to explain how ludicrous the idea that this is a refutation is.
   
   The fact that the Sumerian city of Ur was excavated by Woolly is very well documented but there were no mention of any Abraham. Ur of the Chaldeans which Abraham came from was Ur of the Sumerians when Abraham supposedly lived. The Chaldeans or Kaldu lived in the city about 950 BC which was also when Gerar existed as well as the kings Abraham visited.
   
   I mentioned above the fact that there is no indication of Abraham being in Egypt, no evidence exist to that fact and any person that states there is such evidence is dishonest. The cruel fact is that there is no accuracy to the notion of Abraham.
   
   Regarding Hammurabi being the king of Shinar mentioned in Gen 14:1 is utterly absurd. All you are doing is twisting material around. According to the biblical material Abraham lived 300+ years before Hammurabi and according to the evidence in books such as "Egypt Canaan and Israel in Ancient times" by historian professor Donald B. Redford Hammurabi lived about a thousand years before the rest of the people which can truly be identified to have been referred to in Genesis and encountered by Abraham.
   
   Your attempt at refuting me by not touching on what I wrote but relating entirely different material was what made me overlook your comments as having any bearing on the conversation.
   
   When discussing cities which existed about 2000 BC the most important city of all outside Egypt and Sumer was not mentioned at all, the city known as Mari.
   
   If you desire to present evidence that Abraham existed as fact you have to present material which does not contradict real archeology and science.

   
   
   
6. flowerchilde
   ..where are you getting your information? Some website on the moon?
   
   

   Gnosisquest
   Professor Donald B. Redford in his book "Egypt Canaan and Israel in Ancient Times" supplies verification about practically every statement I made in regards to Exodus. In addition this historian also makes it clear how your "Historical proof" above is nothing but televangelist dreams and lies.
   
   Why brag about the discovery of the Hittites? The only reason they were ever forgotten was because of the burning and destruction of the early Christians!
   
   Ras

   
   
   danvino
   Beyond doubt Abraham must have received from Shem the Story of the Creation and Fall of Man, and of the Flood. He himself had a direct Call from God to become Founder of a Nation through which one day the whole race would be blessed.
   
   Abraham lived in a society of Culture, Books, and Libraries. He was a man of conviction and leadership. He surely must have made Careful and Accurate Copies of Accounts and Records which he had received from his ancestors; to which he added the story of his own life and God's promises to him; on Clay Tablets, in the cuneiform language, to be handed on for the Annals of the Nation which he was founding.
   
   ARCHAEOLOICAL NOTE: Abraham's Visit to Egypt. On the tomb of Senusert II, of the 12th dynasty, at Benihassen, who is thought to have been the Pharaoh at that time, there is a sculpture depicting a visit of Asiatic Semite traders to his court. The partriarchal narratives clearly suggest a vigorous commerce with Egypt. (Genesis 12:10-20; 37:25; 43:11; 46:6).
   
   

   Gnosisquest
   Danvino:
   
   There is a lot of doubt as presented in the book "Berossus Genesis Merneptah Exodus" by historian Russell Gmirkin. Here it looks as if the Abraham tale was borrowed from the Babylonian history book written by Berossus in the fourth century BCE.
   
   Your presumptions about Abraham are just presumptions, it is a "What if" without substance, and there are no records of any Abraham. The only covenant anyone had with the God represented by the Tetragammaton before the 12th century BCE was the covenant with the Shasu tribe.
   
   The fact that there was commerce in the 12th dynasty between Sumer Mari and Egypt is a well known fact. The possibility that there was anyone involved in that commerce named Abram is only speculation and the possibility that such a person held the beliefs reported in the Bible and had a life story as reported in the Bible hinges only on wishful thinking.

   
   
   
7. Abrahamic
   Hello Gnosisquest!
   
   Before i start formally and get my information refreshed, I would like to ask what dating method was used for age of the cities. Please try to be precise if you know:-)
   
   

   Gnosisquest
   The age of Gerar was established through carbon 14, pottery and correspondence with other cities of the time. Correspondence and city records were what identified the time of the reign of King Abimelech.
   
   (You may like to read "Egypt Canaan and Israel in Ancient Times" by Prof Donald B. Redford. There are other books also from archeologists and historians which are interesting but Redford is unbiased and professional).

   
   
   Abrahamic
   Despite my 1 hour search on internet I couldn't find the book you suggested for online reading. They are on payment and I can't purchase. I have also ckecked local library but it's not there either.
   
   Do you have an online version or resource where i can find it? If not then let me know so that i can comment with whatever knowledge I have:-)
   
   

   Gnosisquest
   I do not know if the book is available for online reading but a search in the US gives a great many replies. Amazon.com sells used copies for as little as $5.00
   
   ISBN-10: 0691036063
   
   ISBN-13: 978-0691036069
   
   Any library should have this book as it is considered the most reliable unbiased material on the Ancient Near East.
   
   Do you live in a country where library material is censored?

   
   
   Abrahamic
   My comment:
   
   At this point in time, your data pertaining to ages of cities and nations might be right but the conclusion and claim you make, that too with certainty, is not right, I'll explain...
   
   Archaeology hardly enjoys the scientific accuracy (specially about ages)that biology does, let alone more accurate fields of Mathematics and Physics, mainly owning to the following two factors.
   
   We don't know how much we have found till date and how much we have yet to discover. How much do you think we have known, the available evidence? I'll side with bible maximalists no more than bible minimalists. My point would be, do we know adequately enough? a claim if made will be against scientific theory/definition of fact. An archaeological claim has lesser life than claims of other scientific fields. Many things which were believed and claimed to be untrue came out to be true and many things which were believed to be of some nature came out to be very different.
   
   
   Dating methods are never accurate to the point of making claims with "certainty" about them. The problem increases when it is about age of the city or nation, which generally follows the relative dating and not absolute dating. Archaeological History has seen many such claims broken, with later excavations and evidence. Edomites were claimed to exist no earlier than 9th century BCE, but evidences we are getting now may take them back to 11th century BCE. The samples from pyramids retested in 1984 were found to be on average 374 years older than the age of the kings who supposedly built them. Carbon 14 dating is feared to be lesser and lesser acurate in future owing to increased radioactive activity on earth.
   
   So, let's not jump to conclusions. With the data available we can say, at best, that there is no evidence to existence of Abraham but to say that there is evidence to his non-existence, is not a valid scientific claim. By doing this you will put yourself in line with the atheists, for whom, absence of evidence is evidence of absence. In this scenario, all your gnostic beliefs of Pleroma and demiurge can easily be proven wrong and both of them and soul can be proven non-existent because none of them is scientifically provable or none of them have scientific evidence at all.
   
   So, to put it straight, If Abraham is non-existent based on evidence you are coming with, then soul is non existent as well; then Pleroma and demiurge are also equally non-existent because we don't have scientific and/or archaeological evidence for their existence.
   
   May we be guided..:-)
   
   

   Gnosisquest
   Abrahamic:
   
   No jumping to anything is necessary to see that whether or not the dating of the King of Gerar and the city is off even by a few hundred years there is no possibility of alignign the material regarding Abraham with the people and cities he visited. There is not just one error but it is all erroneous so when all evidence indicates mistakes, logically we must deduce that Abraham as depicted in the Bible never existed.
   
   All biblical legends are based on something; Moses is based on the Egyptian Pharaoh Ahmose, yet there is also included in the material about Moses in the Bible the legend of Sargon the Great from Babylon.
   
   As mentioned all biblical legends have some basic character or characters that are found to have originated the tale. There is one exception and that is Abraham. No Near Eastern material exists about any person which in any way resembles Abraham. There is one small reference to a possible correlation with a person from Ras Shamras/Ugarit, the Canaanite city of about 1300 BCE, yet this is a very feeble semblance.
   
   Earlier I mentioned the fact that the people that worshipped the God of the Israelites about 1300 BCE were the tribe known as the Shasu. Yawwu, Yaw, YHWH was the chief God of this tribe. There are no other authentic legends from the Shasu/Israelites in the biblical material so it would seem that the tale surrounding Abraham is the only surviving tale from the Old Shasu. This tale would have been incorporated and altered to fit the new face the Shasu/Israelites that attempted to establish themselves about 250 BCE in order to fit in with the society of the age.
   
   Something has to have been behind the Abraham legend but since the Shasu at the time were just a small insignificant group of nomads, at times mentioned by the Egyptians, all we know is that while the tale most assuredly was from the Shasu there is absolutely no reason to deign it with any credibility. Furthermore; to base any religion on scant evidence and conjecture is a crime against society.

   
   
   
   Abrahamic
   Gnosisquest:
   
   You totally missed my point. When absolute dating is found at fault and is changed, all relativistic datings which are in relation to that would have to be changed. when age of pyramids needs to be pushed back further then we will have to readdress all the characters related to it. like I quoted about sampling done in 1984 which suggested pushing back their age by 374 years, now who built them if we need to consider that pyramids were made 374 years earlier than what was thought? either we will also have to take the corresponding characters back at that age or we will have to search a new character.
   
   ""No near eastern material exists about any person which in any way resembles Abraham""
   
   To claim that Abraham is non-existent based on this argument is what I was calling Jumping to conclusion, to say that absence of evidence is evidence of absence is not a valid scientific claim. whoever makes it is going against the definition of scientific fact and will be rendered a liar in the eyes of a scientific mind.
   
   The possibility is that shasu themselves were following script descended to them from Abraham. According to Muslim's Holy book Quran, Moses was not the first person to receive commandments, earlier they were given to Abraham but don't confuse them same as the ones given to Moses. Quran uses the word "suhuf of Ibrahim and suhuf of Musa" meaning scripture of Abraham and scripture of Moses. and Quran many a time, mentioning something testifies that it was in earlier scriptures too, and earliest, to my knowledge, considered is that of Abraham. So it is quite possible that Abrahamic scripture descended to shasu and Moses's was though independent of them but still having similarity with the teachings mentioned in that scripture. I don't agree that Moses or Jews copied it or like that, all divine material has to have similarities changing just for intellectually evolved world and humans.
   Same happened to these materials and scriptures. There is another claim that muslims make, They say that they have a stone bearing foot print of Abraham; that must be checked. No evidence should be discarded.
   
   So to finalize, There is no evidence of non-existence of Abraham and If somebody is to claim it then soul is also non-existent based on the principle of absence of scientific and archaeological evidence. So simple is the conclusion:-)
   
   

   Gnosisquest
   I did not miss your point; your point is not relevant to the discussion. There is no doubt that the King Abraham was supposed to visit ruled Gerar 850 BCE. There is no doubt that the city Gerar was founded just a few hundred years earlier and there is no doubt that the Philistines did not exist in the area until 1200 BCE.
   
   Biblical Abraham which was supposed to have lived about a thousand years earlier and never even mentioned the city Mari could not possibly have existed as the Muslims, Christians and Israelites would have him.
   
   There is no evidence anywhere that Abraham existed or that he made any covenant with any God. Abrahams covenant was really no different than numerous other covenants made by a great many Kings of the ANE and also with numerous different Gods.
   
   Egyptian chronology is never suggested to have been off by any 374 years anywhere in serious documents and I did not desire to bother with it. When it comes to the chronology of ancient Egypt the surviving fragment from Merneptah seems to be the best. For a complete discussion see Donald B. Redford and "Egypt Canaan and Israel in ancient times".
   
   Saying that Abraham existed because of the unreliable Judaic, Christian and Islamic material is really jumping to conclusions. The Judaic material can demonstrably be shown to be in error about practically everything. Material which is shown to be in error is not employed anywhere as reliable evidence. (Read for example "The Dead Sea Scrolls Bible"; by Abegg, Flynt and Uhlrich.
   
   Now after you understand that there is absolutely no evidence to support Abraham we can go on and discuss the Egyptian Pharaoh Ahmose who the Israelites borrowed material from and who the Israelites called Moses.
   
   A stone bearing the footprint of Abraham; great, I would really like to have a talk with the person that was there and saw Abraham create that print. The statement you made is just further evidence that Islam is based on false claims.
   
   To claim correlation between the existence of Abraham and the soul is also just so much empty talk, I believe my Hindu friends have provided evidence for the soul which you do not have a clue how to refute.
   
   It is not you I am against, I'm only trying to help you see that Islam is in error so that you can live a life without humbling yourself for a God that doesn't exist.

   
   
   Abrahamic
   Gnosisquest:
   
   You really missed the relevant point. what gives you surety that the ages claimed are right, given the past history of archaeology? were you yourself there to testify that archaeological ages are perfectly right? change in 1 absolute dating because of over all flawed method will drive the whole relativistic dating behind or forward... Now even if right that doesn't prove that Abraham didn't exist. Again Absence of evidence is not the evidence of absence. who could have believed that Edomites existed before 9th century until recently? Who could have believed that isle of youth and petroglyphs could have existed and were not myths. was Sumeria the first civilization?.. I don't understand, how could a person ever make claims with certainity, who claim to know archaeology, based on absence of evidence, which surely is ignorance and ego and nothing else..
   
   ""There is no evidence anywhere that Abraham existed""
   
   That's where you step out of decorum of science and step into the dictum of belief:-)
   
   I have no intention to refute the existence of soul as I believe, it exists but to say that there is scientific observable empirical evidence for it's existence is a lie till date:-) There is no biological, Archaeological, physiological, chemical and any other scientific proof that soul exists. But if someone asks me, I have my own set of evidence for the existence of soul. An atheist can very logically and scientifically refute you or me about existence of soul. While he will refute us and consider himself wise and will declare that he has refuted all believers of soul, what would you think about his claim of refutation...The same answer is quite applicable to your so called refutation that absence of evidence is not necessarily evidence of absence.
   
   Did you see the civilization of Egypt gnosisquest!? did you see characters of Egyptian civilization yourself? Archaeology is about deduction based on circumstantial evidence, no body has seen anything to make you qualify to mock other people, who havn't seen something they claim existence of!
   
   Gnosisquest: I am also trying hard and my best to help you to be free from prejudice. I am not against you personally, as a human you have all my respect and regard. what I do criticize however, is your attitude towards research, your disrespect and wrong way to deal and understand the things.
   
   

   Gnosisquest
   Absence of evidence is indeed evidence of absence and the notion that it is not so comes from some ill informed person that is afraid.
   
   When it comes to any subject studied or which have any research done to it there is no subject to study if there is no evidence. There is no evidence for an Abraham so get over it, the material of the Bible dates from eras in history separated by more than a thousand years so the only evidence which exist indicates that it is false.
   
   The Sumerians may not be the first civilization but since they are the first civilizations that left written records they have the distinction of being the first known civilization.
   
   Now what on earth does the question about if I have seen the Egyptians have to do with anything? We can look at what is and read their material which gives us a good indication of what was. I do not mock people for believing in something they can't see, I just want to present the evidence which indicate that what is in their imagination when it comes to prophets or God(s) is based on nothing more than imagination and wishful thinking.
   
   The day Muslims and other radicals stop killing people due to their delusion is the day I and a great many others will stop presenting the proof of the false doctrines. Until that date I'm afraid you are stuck with listening to facts.

   
   
   
   Makro74
   Abrahamic,
   
   Gnquesy misses the point alot! Get used to it. He blows and blows, hardly ever listens.




8. bhuvahsya
   You have a deep study as far as religions that have evolved from the middle eastern crucible. I think what you should consider is the writing which are relevant and true in today's context. Balance you can just brush it aside. What matters is your intuition for truth and efforts to understand and seek it.
   
   

   Gnosisquest
   Thank you for the good advice:
   
   The truth as I have found it is that we exist in a fifth dimension of awareness which is apart from the physical universe.
   
   There has been some material which reference this among the ancients but very little. It was my effort to find out what happened which brought me across all the religious material. People that are subservient to some God are worshipping from a three dimensional point of view even while they perceive from a fourth dimension. Such a state is destructive to the individuals involved and all effort should be made to help them.

   
   
   
9. eaforeman6
   You are here: Archaeology >> Bible Archaeology
   
   Bible Archaeology: Cities of Abraham's Time
   Bible Archaeology often begins with the early cities of Abraham and the Patriarchs. Abraham's ancestral home of Ur, a powerful city-state of southern Mesopotamia, is mentioned four times in the Old Testament. Located in modern Iraq, Ur has been excavated on and off since the 1800s and has revealed a wealth of information about the pagan culture of Abraham's time. In Genesis 11:31, Abraham's father, Terah, moved his family north to Haran, an ancient city that exists in modern-day Turkey. Also found in that same area of Turkey are villages that still have the names of Abraham's grandfather and great grandfather, Nahor and Serug (Genesis 11:22).
   
   http://www.allaboutarchae...
   
   

   Gnosisquest
   It makes no difference that the cities existed when what the bible states is something entirely different from the truth.
   
   Biblical archeology if anything has proven that the biblical material is in error since all details of the bible reflect life a thousand years or more after the bible states it existed.
   
   I am quite well versed in the excavations of Ur, seat of the worship of the moon God as was the city Haran.

   
   
   Makro74
   Gnquesy,
   Erm... it does make a difference!



10. Adnan_Ahsan
    Friend don't follow his blind opinions, he is not a blind from his visible eyes, but he is a big blind from his mind and his heart, he does not respect any religion, he is a big abuser...i request all of you, don't follow him, don't think what he is saying, just follow what your heart says..thanks
    
    
    

    Gnosisquest
    When the people that look at the evidence and truths are called blind it will be the blind that are leading the world.
    
    Too many blind people are leaders which are why the Muslim and American and other societies are in the sad shape they are in today!

    
    
    Adnan_Ahsan
    Christians, Muslims, Hindus, All are better than you, you are a not a good person, i did not say that proofs are blind, for your kind information, proofs never be blind, you are really blind, i hope these members will not follow you, they have sense, whereas you are a senseless old man, you follow your old senseless taught, i knew that you will not see any proof, nor read my discussions, but i hope other members will follow the truth, they will see my discussions, they will see that proofs, i have shared, hey you doubt in Islam, you just search Islamic miracles on YouTube, you will see many, because Its a real Religion...i hope other members will not follow you..
    
    

    Gnosisquest
    Adnan:
    
    I read your discussions and I hope others see what you call proof!
    
    People whose minds are not clouded through the daily prayers will be able to easily see the terror behind what you call truth so you are destroying your cult by providing information.

    
    
    Adnan_Ahsan
    you have gone mad!
    
    watch it if you can
    http://www.youtube.com/wa...
    
    

    Gnosisquest
    The person that look for evidence and knowledge is not the one who is mad:

    
    
    • MyLot discussion #756599 Refutation II
    
    
    • MyLot discussion #770748 Refutation IV
    
    
    • MyLot discussion #776127 Refutation V
    
    
    • MyLot discussion #794548 Refutation X
    
    
    • MyLot discussion #792248 Refutation IX
    
    
    • MyLot discussion #680988 Proof the Christian GOD Does not exist (Lots of comments)
    
    

    
    
    It is the person that guide his life by superstition and hear-say which is mad!

    
    
    Makro74
    Gnquesy,
    
    Ha ha, hear-say. This is one thing your full of.



11. Makro74
    GnQuesy
    
    Ha ha ha,
    
    Your posts are amazing, again, for the sake of laughter I am finding more and more of your absurd material. Ha ha ha
    
    Cherry picking again!!!
    
    'the table of nations....can be ignored.....describes...the nations more than a thousand years later'. You make a statement of ignorance, and an assumption, but no evidence for that fact.
    
    'Abraham lived about 2000BC....Gerar founded 1000BC....850BC handed to wife/sister'
    'Camels domesticated around 1000BC...no writings about Israel till about 200-250BC'
    'Camels....used for transport about hundred years later'
    Assumption 'Judaic fable ... to justify ....Israel as an ancient tribe'
    'EVIDENCE would indicate...'.
    
    The above are examples of passages that are typical of Cherry picking literal and petty writings of a man who is deep in proving the wrongs of faith. Moreover, assimptions are made with no evidence, just cherry picked dates of assumption taken out of context. Using the words 'Evidence would indicate' is vague at best.
    
    For your kind information, if what I am reading is what GN is implying - then this is the qualification.
    
    Genesis and books of the Old Testament refer to tribes of Prophets and saints in a metaphorical sense. Genesis quotes that Adam was the first man on the Earth and lived for around 970 years! For GN's benefit (not that it would do any good), I will explain. Let me point out the above quotation is not word for word and I have not cited a reference but the point I make is enough.
    
    
    In the Genesis example, Adam is said to be the first man and living for around 970 years. If GN, we take this as literal, we can see it is absurd, as no human life can ever last this long. What is the reference to? Moreover, the first part suggests that Adam was the first Man on the planet. This then would throw out the theory of evolution and the decendants of primates. Further, the Bible states Adam to be around 4000-BC, whereas Man is known to be around 1-2million years.
    
    If we take GN's view, we would dismiss the Bible as he does, but in a more petty and complicated way.
    
    But, the metaphorical decoding of faith and the trust in your God to open your eyes, and of course the brain providing more intellect comes to more rational conclusion. The 970 years refers to Adam's era, the time his law was on his people from God. This then reconciles the first man and the dates of empirical research and biblical evidence. For Adam to have legacy and to lay down a law, there must be a set of people to whom he is preaching. Therefore, he cannot be the first man but the first law-bearing messenger from God. So Adam was not around 1-2million years ago, but was around a few thousand years ago.
    
    Applying this to Abraham, the Bible also implies and age or era for Abraham, and the practices that his followers in that era. However, the dates are not always accurate in the Bible since the biblical books have been adjusted over time and vary between book to book. They also vary from copy to copy.
    
    However, the jist is still there. Using GN's methodology, we would spend most of our lives to troll over every petty writings and be none the wiser, since we cannot or will not read between the lines.
    
    On the issue of Islam, if GN is saying Abraham is fable, then his logic would conclude that Islam is based on this notion. How untrue and narrow minded that it is?
    
    
    Of course, Gnquesy, is not correct, Abraham had followers in their masses and everybody of faith recognises the significance of Abraham. GNQuesy is litrally a typical writer of comments that are desperately contrary to sane people.
    
    He digs for evidence in remote areas where it seems nobody will look, but are fable petty areas of out of context and often inaccurate assumptions. When interrogated or refuted, his stance is one of 'I am right you are wrong'.
    
    
    

    Gnosisquest
    You didn’t have to spend that much time writing to prove you have no knowledge about facts; here are some books I suggest you read by historians and researchers: “Egypt Canaan and Israel in Ancient Times” By Prof Redford. Then I recommend “The Dead Sea Scrolls Bible” by Abegg, Flynt and Ulrich.
    
    I could recommend a whole lot of other books but these should do for a start.
    
    I did not write the above post for those that have no idea at all about ancient history which was why I did not provide references.
    
    The Israelite legend of Abraham was an allegory, for the information on how the Israelites put together a couple of ancient books read: Berossus Genesis and Merneptah Exodus by Russell Gmirkin.

    
    
    Makro74
    
    Gnquesy.
    
    Well done, if I was adressing my points to you, then you only need two lines to dismiss your ramblings. However, the world at large fortunately does not read from your twisted approaches.
    
    Which proves my point. Testing your arguments in your style, contesting them and reasonably arguing against them - this is why there is little factual credibility with you. You cannot respond to people with reasoning and, rather you belittle their faith. This is why you get the abuse you do.
    
    You can rave on, but you will be dismissed.
    
    

    Gnosisquest
    Yes; I will be dismissed by all those that have no knowledge and refuse to look at any studies which would show how absurd their claims are.
    
    Why would I worry about those people that do not

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