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Gnosisquest
The Flood tale is supposedly told by people all over the world therefore Christians have been saying it is proof that the tale in the Bible is correct.
In reality the Tsunami in the Indian Ocean after the earthquake in 2004 is why flood tales are told all over the world; plate tectonics is a fact and movement of these plates cause earthquakes and often floods in low lying areas.
The boat depicted in the Bible, if built today employing all the modern technologies, would not be seaworthy. A flood that came about by raining for forty days and nights covering the earth would make the rains in a hurricane seem like a small sprinkle. Such rains would have shredded a boat into the tiniest wood chips in a few seconds.
The Babylonian tale is retold very well in "History begins in Sumer" by Prof S. N. Kramer. The only difference between the biblical tale and the Sumerian tale is the number of Gods, the reason for the flood and Enki whispering the instructions to Ziusudra, the Sumerian Noah, through the wall and also the amount of animals.
The boat described in the Bible is not seaworthy and would not last intact for forty day's if the seas were calm. Timber large enough to make such a ship would come apart when fastened together by its own weight if such timber could be found.
The biblical flood supposedly occurred about the time the Giza pyramid was built in Egypt.
Now the biblical tale is illogical, it is impossible and the reason for the story has a very logical explanation through the borrowing and rewriting of the Sumerian original. The Sumerian story was also written perhaps as long as 3000 years before the Israelites wrote anything.
My question is; in lieu of this evidence can anyone believe the biblical flood story and if so please explain how it is possible.
Could someone also please explain to me how a life is enriched by believing fables and the imagination of primitive people is more valuable than fact.
Best ras
- Thomas73
The story of the biblical flood is indeed quite unbelievable. And if it were true, it would make God guilty of committing a worse genocide than Innocent II, Hitler or Stalin, to name just these three. Who would want to worship such a blood-thirsty tyrant?
As for your second question, fables and happy god-stories may psychologically help some people to get through life with some sort of discipline, as well as avert their fear of death.
Just my twopence...Gnosisquest
Thank you Thomas; as usual your observations are very astute.
Best ras
flowerchilde
..the way it goes, is.. "the world was only evil" - so it was a genocide, but of a bunch of hitlers, etc.. lest all be descended from them and the planet be destroyed by man much too soon.. (for this drama/lesson to unfold in its entirety). - michelledarcy
I think that some of the fables in the bible teach us intersting lessons and are good reflections on how we should behave.
However teaching them as truth is just a way of misleading people. If people don't question them, then it makes me wonder what sort of people are in this world. If they believe everything they read then what hope is there for us all.Gnosisquest
For me a great portion of the population resemble mushrooms; this is what you get from keeping them in the dark feeding them bulls*it.
Best ras
ipissakusina
"The knowledge of the secrets of the kingdom of heaven has been given to you, but not to them. 12Whoever has will be given more, and he will have an abundance. Whoever does not have, even what he has will be taken from him. 13This is why I speak to them in parables: "Though seeing, they do not see; though hearing, they do not hear or understand. 14In them is fulfilled the prophecy of Isaiah:
"'You will be ever hearing but never understanding; you will be ever seeing but never perceiving. For this people's heart has become calloused; they hardly hear with their ears, and they have closed their eyes. Otherwise they might see with their eyes, hear with their ears, understand with their hearts and turn, and I would heal them.'
"But blessed are your eyes because they see, and your ears because they hear. For I tell you the truth, many prophets and righteous men longed to see what you see but did not see it, and to hear what you hear but did not hear it." Matthew 13:11-17
(although these verses are about using parables, it could also applied why it uses fables)
using different kind of speech is a very effective way of teaching, like parables, metaphor, illustration and fables. it reveals what really is in the heart of the listeners, whether they are just hearing things or really want to know more what the topic is all about. it also reaches the heart of the reader or of the student.Gnosisquest
Why create excuses for the biblical flaws?
The Christinan and muslim cults are the worst disasters to befall humanity and making excuses for them will continue to prevent sanity.
Best ras
flowerchilde
Gnosis, your response made no sense.. I'm disappointed to be called a mushroom who believes in sh*t. You do not know as your beliefs are any more viable than anyone else's.. where's your proof that what you believe is true? If you're basing it on man's modern science, that's just another 'god' of the people.. yet as myth and fables, they are highly imaginative, I'll give 'em that..
It's hard to be nice, or even continue a conversation with someone who calls you stupid, and basicly a blind cow. [Like the 'science' crowd ain't following the herd!] - Kaeli72
There is scientific evidence that there was a great flood waaaaay back when. Before the flood, it had never rained upon the earth at all.
Noah was far from being "primitive". The way he built the ark was a marvel in itself. How were the pyramids built? There's no way that one can be built today even with all of our technologies, so why shouldn't an ark be any different?
I am not going to try to convince you or anyone else that the bible is true and/or correct. You have your mind made up, I should know. I've tried to convince people that eating pork is bad for you, but their minds are made up. No amount of biblical AND medical charts will sway them otherwise.
~KaeliGnosisquest
I see; so you ignore what you don't have any answers for and invent new answers to cover obvious flaws.
Are you saying trees grew stronger back then?
Are you saying the earth was flat back then so it didn't take as much water to cover it?
You can't compare the Egyptians with the Israelites. The Egyptians were an established culture about three thousand years before anything affiliated with the Israelites appears.
Best ras
dickkell
You should be aware that Noah was not an Israelite, and the events described in the Flood narrative allegedly took place a couple thousand years (is my memory and math is right) before the Israelites were ever anywhere near Egypt.Gnosisquest
Correct, and the ancient Israelites may be a misnomer; the Israelites quite possibly did not come about until the third century BC.
It is also quite possible that before this time they were known as Shasu.
Best ras - Chiang_Mai_boy Is it possible that myths of a great flood are echoes of early man trying to explain the resulting flooding that occurred during the end of the last ice age. It is indeed sad that people rely on stories invented by Bronze Age tribesmen, to explain their existence, rather than avail themselves to the hard won knowledge we have today.
Gnosisquest
Chiang; do you remember the people crying about how God was punishing us after the flood in 2004?
The hurricane which took New Orleans saw the same clamoring about the God punishing his sinners.
All natural disasters still bring out the primitive superstitions in some people. I believe that whenever there have been disasters there has been invented a reason for it.
The flood mentioned by the Sumerians may have come from any type of disaster however a tsunami from an earthquake in the ocean makes most sense to me.
Floods could have been told about flooding after the last ice age. It is indeed sad when so called modern people rely on superstition by the Bronze Age people to explain their lives.
Best ras - CraftyCorner
jesus taught in parables. i think that the noah busines and his ark, if not a built on story of a less profound event involving a less dramatic story of a family and their critters could be an example of lesson by parable. also, people didn't know all of the world. knowlege of china and america wasn't around yet back then, people's 'worlds' were much smaller, so the 'world' being flooded...could have been a somewhat sizable farm?Gnosisquest
It is amusing how Christian modify their stories as more and more knowledge becomes available.
Yes, the flood story in the Bible has to do with a few farms getting flooded in Sumer. The story is Sumerian from possibly 4000 BC or earlier. The Babylonians adopted the tale into their legend.
The Babylonian Berossus, writing the history of the Babylonians in about 275 BC created the material from which the Israelites got the flood story from.
Best ras - FaaNee
well i think people who believe those story will say that the flood, the ark , the rains etc is all god's will and can't be understand by human. in my opinion since the bible say this event happen more than 30 century ago!! so there is no way we can proove it. so why bother??Gnosisquest
The reason to bother is a desire to wake people up. All those people wasting this life in a dream world is a sad situation. People forcing their children into the same dream world is a crime.
Best ras - kaysoon
If you take scriptural text at face value, you're heading for the abyss of dementia. It's all allegory. Ancient peoples were childlike in outlook and the myths and fables were primarily to lure them into believing in the invariable triumph of good over evil. When dogma is at the steering wheel, remember that logic and rationale are always required to take a back seat. No insult or belittlement intended. Merely stating an incontrovertible fact.Gnosisquest
I don't believe scripture at all. I will show how there is nothing in the Bible which can be believed as allegory or anything else.
Best ras - mansha
I believe in it but do not believe in the stuff regarding the boat thing. I feel yes the flod did came as so many religious scriptures describe it in their own interpretations.
I will post some link on this to prove that the civilisation did exist before great floods.
http://archives.cnn.com/2...
The evidence for a global flood is overwhelming. More than 250 cultures worldwide have Flood traditions that are similar to the Biblical account. This cannot be dismissed as coincidence. One famous one is the legend of Gilgamesh, who survived a great flood with his family by building a boat and filling it with animals. The Greek version of this legend is similar. Tribes around the world like the Mayans and Aborigines also have legends of a great flood.
Also supporting the Flood is geological evidence. Sedimentary rock is found all around the world, and is created by water. The last 3,000 feet of Mount Everest are made of sedimentary rock and crushed shells. Fossilized clams and other fossilized sea life have been found at the top of Mount Everest.
Only thing I disagre to is that they built a single boat and escaped it. My theory is not one but many boats either helped to save them or that there was some high ground to which they could escape though flood was overwhelming but few of them did reach the safety with may befe of their animals and some rations. The story of it must have been told and retold many times before it lost its concrete evidences. By word of mouth things do get lost in between and may be there was one man call it by any name who had put together the idea of building boats and all his tribe helped build it so he was credited with saving them all. Later as the tribe grew and dispersed over the generations the story was repeated by those who have heard it from their parents and so on and it became a tale of faith over the generations.
What do you think, am I close?Gnosisquest
There is evidence for floods having happened in practically all low lying areas on the planet. These did not happen at the same time, so there is no evidence for a world wide flood.
The legend of Gilgamesh is a Sumerian tale and the same tale also talks about the flood. Gilgamesh was not a part of the flood Gilgamesh came after in Sumerian legends.
Gilgamesh sought out Ziusudra, the Sumerian Noah for the Gods had given him eternal life after the flood. (Ziusudra was named Ut-Nepistjim by the Babylonians; Gilgamesh was named Nimrod by the Israelite Bible). Gilgamesh desired the secret to eternal life from Ziusudra and his wife. Ziusudra lets us all know that eternal life is not all that great.
Sedimentary rocks are found in many mountains all over the world. The reasons for these are the same as the tsunamis. Tsunamis are caused by earthquakes under the surface of the sea. The plates which the surface of the earth is made from continuously move. East Africa and South America was once one land mass. Plate tectonics explain what separated them. When there is collision of these plates on land the one plate moves on top of the other. The plates which collided to create the Himalayas are well known by science.
Sorry Mansha; I do not think you are close; the scientific explanation is far more plausible. The flooding after the plates moved in 2004 killed a great many people. Religious people said this was because God wanted to punish them for their sins. They were not close either.
The plates on which we live have to move for the earth to continue to support life; some life comes to an abrupt premature cessation because of this but that is part of the prize we have to pay.
Best ras - ipissakusina
in some point, the bible account about the flood (written in genesis by the way, not in exodus) is more likely impossible. but believing that there is God that wants to save the righteous family from the flood to wash away those sinful, non-repenting pagans, is enough reason why the ship kept stable until the flood is gone. there are alot of religious beliefs through out the world that stating the same idea, about a 8-membered family that were saved during the flood, as a matter of fact, the chinese character for ship literally means "eaith souls in a vessel". Jesus Christ, which have alot of evidence that he existed more than anyone else, also proved that this bible account is true and trustworthy. he qouted about this account at least twice in his gospel.
here are some points to consider it's authenticity:
SPECIFIC: First, unlike those popular or any legends & fairy tales that begins their story with "Once upon a time", the Bible is so spicific when reporting a certain historical event. For instance, the bible states: "In the six hundredth year of Noah's life, on the seventeenth day of the second month—on that day all the springs of the great deep burst forth, and the floodgates of the heavens were opened." Gen. 7:11 NIV
SCIENCE: it also harmonize with science, well supposed to be because it came from God, right? although it is not a scientific textbook, it is accurate regarding that matter!
Job 26:7 "He stretcheth out the north over the empty place,[and] hangeth the earth upon nothing." KJV. For thousands of years people believed that the earth was held by a giant, or four elephants on top of a gigantous turtle, or something like that! but Job accurately stated above almost 5000 years ago before men actually went to the moon and saw that earth is "Hanging upon Nothing"!
Isaiah: 40:22 "It is he that sitteth upon the circle of the earth" Magellan discovered Philippines because he wants to prove that the earth is not square like six hundred years ago! but the Prophet Isaiah stated that verse thousands of years ago, and it is also accurate!
ARCHEOLOGY: Daniel 5:1-30 stated that the last ruler of Babylon was Belshazzar. since there was no other mention about him outside the bible, it underwent to criticsm that this man never existed! but until 19th century, cuneiforms were discovered in southern Iraq called "Verse Account of Nabonidus" containing the prayer for the health of Son of King Nabonidus, Belshazzar!
PROPHECY and HISTORY: There are so many prophecy in the Bible that's also proven by our modern history, but i'll give you my favorite: Daniel 8:20-22 "The two-horned ram you saw represents the kings of the Medes and Persians. The he-goat is the king of the Greeks, and the great horn on its forehead is the first king. The four that rose in its place when it was broken are four kingdoms that will issue from his nation, but without his strength." The Babylon's world power was replaced by Medo-Persia, which gave way to Alexander the Great, "the king of the Greeks, the first king" to spreadhead the Greek world power. But after his death, four of his generals, namely Ptolemy, Seleucus, Cassander and Lysimachus.
THEME: The Bible was written by 40 different men; sheperd, fisher, doctor, lawyer, tax collector, judge, general, psalmist,king & servant; in a period of about 1,600 years but is has only one theme overall: The Sovereignity of Jehovah (Yahweh in other translations), and His Kingdom through Jesus Christ.
Genesis 3:15: "And I shall put enmity between you (The Serpent, Satan) and the woman and between your seed and her seed. He will bruise you in the head and you will bruise him in the heel." NWT
Exodus 6:3: "And I appeared unto Abraham, unto Isaac, and unto Jacob, by[the name of] God Almighty, but by my name JEHOVAH was I not known to them" KJV
Psalms 83:18: "That they may know that thou alone, whose name is Jehovah, Art the Most High over all the earth." ASV
Matthew 6:9-10: "Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name. Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done in earth, as[it is] in heaven." KJV
Psalms 110:1: "The affirmation of Jehovah to my Lord (Jesus): `Sit at My right hand, Till I make thine enemies thy footstool'" RB
Revelation 21:3-4 "And I heard a great voice out of the throne saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he shall dwell with them, and they shall be his peoples, and God himself shall be with them,[and be] their God: and He (God) shall wipe away every tear from their eyes; and death shall be no more; neither shall there be mourning, nor crying, nor pain, any more: the first things are passed away"
IT ANSWERS THE QUESTIONS IN OUR LIFE:
Where did life came from? (Acts 17:24-26) Why are we here? What is the meaning of life? Is it just to live a few years and then die? Gen. 1:27,28; Rom. 5:15, John 17:3, Psalms 40:8. These questions can't be answered by the Theory of Charles Darwin....
IT CONTAINS HIGH MORAL PRINCIPLES & SOURCE OF WISDOM:
Proverbs 2:1-2,5-6: "My son, if thou wilt receive my words, And lay up my commandments with thee; So as to incline thine ear unto wisdom, And apply thy heart to understanding; Yea,if thou cry after discernment, And lift up thy voice for understanding; If thou seek her as silver, And search for her as for hid treasures: Then shalt thou understand the fear of Jehovah, And find the knowledge of God." ASV
1 timonthy 6:9 "But those who want to get rich fall into temptation and a snare and many foolish and harmful desires which plunge men into ruin and destruction." NASB
Matthew 7:12 "All things,m therefore, that you want men to do to you, you must likewise do to them."
Matthew 13:34-35 "Love one another. As I have loved you, so you must love one another. 35By this all men will know that you are my disciples, if you love one another." NIV
2 Timothy 3:16 "All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness" KJV
With all of these proofs, what is your conclusion?Gnosisquest
I know it was Genesis; the Exodus was a mistake I can't fix here.
Some of the things you write here I have already covered other places; the rest will be covered later.
In order to understand what I have been talking about read the other posts I have written earlier refuting the biblical accounts and Jesus.
I have no desire to repeat here what I already have covered.
I admire your work though and desire to refute it all but in its proper place.
Genesis by the way was copied by the Israelites from the Babylonian historian Berossus who in about 275 BC wrote "Babylonia".
There is no evidence for the God of the Israelites until we get to the Shasu.
Best ras
ipissakusina
is it really copied from babilonian writer or the other way around? and why do you have more faith to those pagan writers than the bible? what made them better? are they not also written by men and refutable?
i thhink with your state of mind like that, even if there are evidence that the bible is trustworthy, you really won't accept that fact. even if god hinself descend from heaven and tell you that he exist and the bible is his inspired book, you won't believe him, because you don't want to. i know you're trying to have an open mind, but open it a little bit more wider.Gnosisquest
Kusina; it really is all from a Babylonian writer up until this point. I do not have any more faith in the Babylonians than the Israelites I just will not change facts to adhere to fantasy.
Earlier you mentioned Balthazar, the son of Nabonidus; you said the Bible was the only place where the facts regarding this and the fall of Babylon was preserved.
Pride is vanity, especially in cases like these: The only reason others had forgotten this was because the early Christians destroyed all ancient material, they burned not only the library in Alexandria but destroyed all similar places of learning throughout the known world.
That others had forgotten what happened and followed the altered Christian version is something for which the Christians should be immensely ashamed, not proud!
Best regards ras
ipissakusina
you got me wrong, i said belzhasar, the last ruler of babylon, was only mentioned in the bible, where in early centuries no proof of existance anywhere in history. but during 19th cetury, several cunieform was discovered in southern iraq now known as Verse Account of Nabonidus." There described the prayer regarding the health of the eldest son of Nabonidus, Belzhazar. Thus, proving that the bible is accurate.
the bible also encourages us to educate our selves, and education has a big role in worshipping God. but take note that the bible also predicted or prophesised that after the apostles dies, there will be apostacy, people claiming that they are christians but they do not follow what the bible really teaches, you can tell by their fruits, in deed and doctrines. please read this matthew 13:24-30, 36-43Gnosisquest
I know all about the material discovered which mentions the regent Balthazar.
Balthazar was never king, he ruled in his fathers stead while he was mad. His father was Nabonidus, the last ruler who angered Marduk by worshipping Nanna. Marduk was the God responsible for turning the Babylonian empire over to the Persians. Daniel is a Babylonian book which was borrowed and altered by the Israelites.
You got me wrong; there existed widespread knowledge about this up until the Christians burned the last Greek school in the seventh century and destroyed the last of the books. Christianity has nothing to be proud of; your mentioning about any NT writings regarding the Bible is also useless as examples. There are no complete NT Gospels until more than 300 years after Jesus.
The crimes Christianity committed against humanity by burning the ancient wisdom literature is immeasurable.
Ras
ipissakusina
the book of daniel, of course the entire bible as well, has been examined & debated inside the COURT so many times, and until now there are more and more evidence discovered that it is accurate & reliable.
you've missed these simple verses:
Job 26:7 "He stretcheth out the north over the empty place,[and] hangeth the earth upon nothing." KJV.
Isaiah: 40:22 "It is he that sitteth upon the circle of the earth"
let's say these verses were written in 1700, so what? men haven't believe on those words until men got to the moon and saw that earth is hanging upon nothing and sephere. how did Job & isaiah knew that? there is no better explanation than they're inspired by the greatest source of knowledge, the God.
i just can't help it but notice that it seems you believe and accept babylonian writings as a fact, and you always say that bible is altered and came from babylonians, it doesn't make any sense at all. and on top of that, you haven't prove anything yet.
i am aware about those so called christians, and just like what i'm trying to say, you will know that they are true christians by deeds. those so called christians are far from how christians should be. those very "christians" tried to destroy the bible itself. but the bible is alive and it endure that until now we have copies.
just like you, i think religion is like a sinking ship. you want people to jump out of it, but you don't have a life boat.Gnosisquest
What court are you talking about? The Bible has never been debated in a court.
The Greeks knew that the earth was round before the writing of the Pentateuch. Since the Pentateuch could not have been written before 270 BCE the Bible is relatively new. The Christians employed the Book of Enoch to tell that the world was held up on pillars.
I am not saying the Babylonians were correct; Genesis was written from the historical rendering by Berossus called "Babylonia".
Who needs a life boat? Humanity is like healthy people walking with the aid of Crutches that do not reach the ground. All that needs to be done is throw away the crutches and straighten the back.
Ras - islander7
As usual a supurbly logical debunking of biblical nonsense.
My line had been in another discussion that the ark would have had to have been illogically immense in order to house all those pairs of animala! So obviouly a fable.Gnosisquest
Thank you Islander - mobyfriend
Something interesting: There is a guy in my country who is rebuilding the ark in accordance with all the biblical measurements. Now anyone seeing this boat could see that no way it is seaworthy and yet he intends to sail with it.
Frankly I cannot give a reason why logical reason should be more valid than believing fables or the imagination of primitive people. For some logical or illogical reason the human mind needs both.
Many cultures have a flood story. As I rememmber there is even a Hindu version in which the deity changes into a fish and pulls the boat on land.
Personally I think those tales were not told to be about reality but about the lesson coming from the tale. What about our modern day Lord of The Rings?
Logical reasoning versus mythology I cannot see how you can end that just by proving that some evens may or may not have taken place.
btw I have no idea what Best Ras means.Gnosisquest
Thank you Moby:
Your story about the person building a boat reminds me of a priest which was given the Darwin award. This is actually a true, verified story. This priest or pastor was giving a sermon about Jesus and mind over matter. In order to show that the Bible was correct he was going to walk on water. Poor fellow didn't know how to swim and ended up buried. Some people would rather die than think.
There is nothing wrong with fables; it is when fantasy is thought as fact that it goes too far.
Best Regards Ras
flowerchilde .
.the fables (yes fables, and fantastic ones at that) of modern man, when world resources get low, will result in the survival of the fittest aided by the hand (and modern marvels) of man.. If you think believing in hard cold materialism alone will change human nature.. well, I'm comparing the 50 and 60's to today.. and frankly I ain't seein' it. Society is on the slippery slope to barbarism.. OR, if you have an alternate spiritual teaching that's been handed down.. how is its myths any more viable than any others? But I can wait for that answer later in your threads..
:)) - dodoguy
Very interesting to observe the dynamics of human arrogance at work in real time.
The Flood was indeed an actual event - it is recorded in every human culture around the world, even in Australian Koori culture.
And it's SO easy to assume the role of debunker - but how precisely do you debunk eye-witness accounts of an event" Of course, simply deny them.
Many Saintly mystics, having the God-given faculty for looking into the future and the past, have given first-hand accounts of the mayhem that took place at that time. Suffice to say that the actual history of the world bears little resemblance to what popular "science" would like to have us believe. In short, we know far less about the world than our self-appointed academic superiors would like to think.
As for the glory of "science", it really is a very ego-bound discipline - not something that I would give too much weight to. How old did you say the Pyramids were? Now we have that settled, perhaps we can all get some sleep (not!). You forgot to tell us who the head architect was...
According to "science" we're living in an "expanding universe" - and now that "science" has spun that particular fairy story, it can't extricate itself from it even though the Big Bang Theory (Big Bang Dogma, I would say) has already been incontrovertibly proven FALSE. And anyone who is willing (note that most important word - "willing") to go dig up the facts of the matter can confirm that for themselves.
According to "science", the Sun (and all the stars) is a big fluffy nuclear furnace. Except there's a problem with that - NASA has satellite photos of the Sun's very BLACK, very SOLID surface. But once again, "science" is unable to extract itself from the stellar fairy story that it has been so busy weaving all these years.
Do we detect a pattern emerging here?
Whenever I observe anyone prattling on about what was and wasn't the case all those thousands of years ago, based on their application of "science" to the matter, in my books that's about the time to go read a good book - any fairy story will do, because it's likely to be both more credible and more entertaining.Thomas73
If you consider that scientific conclusions are based on observed facts and tested theories, I really don't understand why you want to blind yourself and prefer to live in a dream world of fairy tales. You remind me of those children who play hide-and-seek and just cover their eyes thinking, "if I can't see anyone, then no one can see me". It's sweet, but not very effective.
As long as you're comfortable with your beliefs, fine. But please don't try to distort the truth for others, and find 'facts' to suit your conclusions.Gnosisquest
Thomas; you are too kind.
Dodo; it is a crime to distort reality and teach children lies as facts. It prevents them from developing their mental abilities as they constantly try to align their discoveries with nonsense.
Best Ragards Ras
dodoguy
Thomas,
It is my humble opinion that you are a clown of the first order.
We have here the classic case of the Cabal supporting each other, congratulating each other and patting each other on the back for being so "learned" as to recite a series of well-worn mantras.
The mutual admiration club, you might say.
The blind leading the blind.
I say "blind" because you are so bold as to dismiss ("debunk", is that how you'd prefer it to be expressed?) the position of other people as "ignorant" (ie, the opposite of you "learned" folks) without even a thought to considering the possibility that there are alternative world views to your own, derived by intellects (gasp! dare we say it?) at least the equal of your own. With one glaring exception - other people are prepared to accept tangible evidence which you choose to dismiss.
Other people have world views based very soundly on facts which you choose not to see.
Selective blindness in support of a predetermined paradigm.
Even if I went to the trouble of digging up the specific information which substantiates each and every thing that I have stated (which I won't be doing, because as the saying goes, you can take a horse to water...) that selective blindness would persist, and the personal attacks and the facade of virtuous concern for the kiddies would no doubt intensify.
Of course, this is fully expected, as this is the way of modern "science".
Here's something to ruffle your feathers, just for the hell of it - the sky on Mars is blue. But don't trouble yourself to check - we all "know" it's red, now don't we?
But that's alright, because it's a free world, and you're not on Mars, are you?
Thomas73
I'm glad you appreciate my writing, dodo. Your affirmations are however a bit dangerous. Mistaking your fantasy for science is indeed dnagerous and led once some people to declare that there were such things as superior and inferior races.
What you're writing is not only shallow and meaningless -- the sky of Mars red? Hmmm... please! -- but potentially harmful for feeble minds who could simply take your words at face value, whereas they are in no way substantiated by evidence of any kind.
dodoguy
Thomas, Thomas, Thomas...
Now you have moved to demonizing the people who don't conform to you viewpoint?
You actually have the temerity and the audacity to insinuate that people who don't agree with you are Nazis?
And you have dismissed evidence that you have never even seen - even though it is freely available to anyone with the initiative to go and dig it up.
Your train of logic left the rails a long long time ago in a galaxy far far away.
And I'm quite happy for it to stay there.
Thomas73
I merely stated that people like you who turn false science into ideology are dangerous.
On the other hand, I must say that you should write novels. Your wild imagination would make you the next Stephen King. Just don't pretend that your work of fiction conforms to any reality, though.
tarachand
Guys, I think that this is a discussion and not an insult trading ground. Each of you have a right to your own opinions, but a sincere request, as mature adults please do away with the insults and the sarcasm and......
Sorry to butt in, it is good to know what other's think about something that you have a firm opinion about, so do trade knowledge from your perspective, not insults.
No offense intended to anyone. - spiderman05
I read Samuel Kramer's book too and the chapters about the creation of Eve and the flood as well as the analogy between Sumerians' cosmogony and early Judaism. I am more inclined to believe in historical facts too. The flood story was told in different many cultures including Mesopotamia, Persia and India. Floods were common is Mesopotamia at that time. The land between the Tiger and Euphrates rivers is flat and it did not take much rain to get it flooded.
For those interested in studying the bible from a historical point of view, I also recommend John Romer's book "Testament: The Bible and History". I am in the middle of reading this book. Actually the book is divided into 2 parts. The first part deals with the old testament and the second part with the new testament. I'm done reading about the old testament and started reading about the new one. Romer tried to analyze the bible texts from historical and anthropological points.
On the other hand, as Romer himself mentioned (and as some members did in this discussion), some messages conveyed by the bible have great values and the tales might have been used to just strike the minds of the masses.
Gnosisquest
Thank you Spiderman:
Another good book if you desire to delve deeper into the history of the near eat is Prof. Redford's "Egypt Canaan and Israel in Ancient Times".
For those that desire to know what the Old Testament said 2000 years ago read: The Dead Sea Scrolls Bible" by Abegg, Flynt and Ulrich; quite an eye opener.
I would also recommend a book on Ugarit/Ras Shamras about the Canaanites 3300 years ago but do not recall the author.
Regards Ras
spiderman05
Thanks for the recommendations. I took not of the titles you suggested. - juliocstryfe
3 nitpicks.
1- The descriptions in the Bible were translated from a language which didnt have proper measurements. The Muslim Hadith themselves note that people will try and make up imaginary measurements for the ark, but none ill do justice to thousands of years of
2- Sumarian Noah? Strange, his name was Gilgamesh, not Noah. Noah does not exist in ANY Sumerian tale, and his tale were different. Dont make up facts please?
3- Supposedly occured? Historian´s estimated date, might be, or not be, the correct time it happened.
4- How can life be enrichened and what can we learn from this "fable?" Seeing as society STILL ignores the calls of the wise, and is leading itself to self-destruction shows pretty much that we havent learned enough, instead we waste time comparing Noah to Gilgamesh.
Gnosisquest
Wrong; the Sumerian Noah was Ziusudra, the Babylonians changed his name to Ut-Nepistjim. The talk about him in the epic of Gilgamesh (Nimrod in the Bible) has to do with a plant which granted eternal life.
You are right in that society still ignores the calls of the wise; the scientists.
Like children that do not desire to give up the belief in Santa Claus Christians ignore knowledge and clling to their make believe world.
Ras
dodoguy
"society still ignores the calls of the wise - the scientists..."
Excuse me while I go outside and puke for about 5 hours...
Here's a true story, just to put things in perspective - a certain Catholic Saint (can you hear the "scientists" brains shutting down out there, kiddies?) who was also a mystic (and also a woman - strangely enough, most of the mystics were and are) related her observations of future events, ostensibly not too far into our future now... note that I said "future events" not "vision", because we don't want to give the "scientists" too much to chew on here, now do we?
Anyway, to cut a long story short, she described how a terrible war with bombs of indescribable destructive power would be fought all across the Northern Hemisphere, and that "scientists" would learn how to take the "essence of a man" and blend it with animals so that human-pig hybrids would be used as soldiers on the battlefields (anyone worried about the Terminator scenario is an optimist) and finally, after the world had been bombed back into the stone-age, the common folk would hunt down and kill the "scientists" like wolves because of the pain, horror and destruction that had been brought down upon humanity with their "creations".
This lady lived a couple of centuries ago.
But she's right.
You only have to observe the incredible arrogance on display by the "learned" "scientists" here.
They've got it so badly wrong that it's like living in the twilight zone. Or as suggested in the Bible, a time when everything will be the opposite of what it appears.
dodoguy o
and another thing...
there's some real nasty types waiting on the other side of our temporal reality - and that's not a make-believe scenario, even if you're a "scientist"...
trying to dismiss such a prospect because it's not to our liking would be akin to playing Peter Pan - "clap if you believe"...
it's a whole lot easier to avoid being seen if you don't want to be seen, and the ones you're hiding from don't want to see you either...Gnosisquest
Dodo; is reality so terrible you have to cling to your fantasy world?
How many times must you all profess the terror which will come about due to some prophesy which never never omes about before you realize there is something seriously wrong with your superstitions?
Best ras
dodoguy
Superstitions indeed...
this is actually getting to the heart of things - the meaning of life, the universe & everything - which is all very simple and self-evident once seen, but impossible to detrmine beforehand.
Superstition?
You have a 60-odd year window of stability and security in your material paradigm - and you have the luxury of indulging delusion in that timeframe if you so choose.
Terror?
Wait until the moment of standing at the edge of the abyss.
A greater reality awaits each of us, outside the constraints of time and space, and outside any bounds of our current material experience.
Anyone who has been so fortunate as to to have encountered even the most insignificant of creatures from those places has the benefit of foresight, and a very, VERY healthy respect for what's in store for each of us beyond this limited existence.
Western "science" is built upon thousands of collective egoes. It sustains itself, it feeds on itself, it propagates and entrenches false beliefs - and persecutes any detractor, despite its errors.
But Western "science" is constrained to the same temporal window that the "scientist" passes through, and is left behind. Western "science", flawed, corrupt and self-serving as it is, has no "answer" to the larger reality, which all of us must face, "scientists" included.
Gnosisquest
Very funny Dodo:
The nasty types you mention must be the "Archons" mentioned by the Gnostics.
These wise people from before Christ and who Jesus belonged to stated that the Judaic God was a demigod. They called him Samael and Ialdabaot, Samael is most descriptive.
Ras
juliocstryfe
Gnosisquest - I find your version intriguing, and the version Ive studied is quite different, but sadly google search is not helping me, any literature/sites you could suggest that I could find more information on this Sumerian Noah? However I stand fasst by the innacuracy of the date and measurement.
Dodoguy - Although Ive seen Chinese traditinal doctors curing stuff that science still has trouble doing, I wouldnt wite Western science yet, we´re talking a collectine opinion based on 500 years of research here, and the fcat that ANY scientific fact mus be proven and shown to peers before its accepted leaves quite little room for mistakes.
Gnosisquest
Julio; search for Noah's original name, Ziusudra, on internet and you will find a myriad of scholarly and layman's articles on the Sumerian flood.
Best regards ras
juliocstryfe
Ok, I shall read through after I finish giving lessons, then I shall get back to you.
juliocstryfe
Very interenting indeed, the similarities abound-
"Man of Shuruppak, son of Ubar-Tutu,
Destroy thy house, build a vessel,
Leave thy riches, seek thy life,
Store in thy vessel the seeds of all life."
"When dawn broke
A cloud as black as night rose from heaven's
foundation.
thin it Adad bellowed!
Shullat and Khanish marched at the head,
Nergal tears away the mast.
He comes, Ninuta, he spurs the attack,
The Anunnaki are bearing torches,
Their brilliance lights up the land,
Adad's tumult reaches the skies,
All that is bright is changed into darkness."
Interesting, although aside from the ending, where Uta-Napishtim became a god at the end, Noah´s ark seems quiitethe same. To top that, I´ve also found traces of the same flood story-
-The Greek version- the gods flooded the world and
destroyed the human race because of it's wickedness. However,
Deucalion and his wife were granted safe passage through the
destruction by building and provisioning an enormous wooden
chest, after which they repopulated the world by throwing over
their shoulders stones, which were magically transformed into
people.
_Egyptian version- Osiris was a god with almost identical attributes
to Dionysus. He was murdered by his brother and his body, locked
in a wooden chest, was set afloat on the sea on the seventeenth
of the month, the same day as that given for the beginning of the
Biblical flood. Here, the passage is symbolized by
the journey between life, death and rebirth.
All just reinforced the fact that it did happen. Why?
1) Historians to make the Bible seem wrong, pushed the date to thousand years after, proving nothing.
-------------------------------
Now as I mentioned before, the historians date ignored the book´s date, and its wrong. Now we Muslims date Nuh(noah)´s ark as something happening before the first civilizations appeared, Muhammad (PBUH) said: "The period between Adam and Nuh was ten centuries." (Sahih Bukhari). According to Genesis 5 (new Revised Standard Version), Nuh was born one hundred and twenty six years after the death of Adam. By both accounts Nuh (noah) would predate the historian´s date by a millenia. The historian´s dates you gave are pretty off, and contradicting both muslim and Christian views.
If we´re to take the Muslim date (1000 years after the first man) or the Bible´s date, Nuh predates the Sumerians, Egyptians and Greeks, thus the fact that they also mention it, merely shows its authencity, and that it was recorded by not one but many civilizations reinforce the fact that the flood happened and that Nuh existed, since only the historian´s date
2) On how it floated, etc-
------------------------
On how it survived and floated and moved? Sura 11:41 says: "And he (Allah) said, 'Ride ye in it; in the Name of God it moves and stays!", do it was under the command of god, and under his control.
Now if we´re going to refute the Bible´s passages by changing their dates, we´re not proving anything at all, but that some people are too desparate to refute it.
Now can we refute the arc by the Bible´s date? Or the Q´ran´s? Because by both it happened before the Sumerians, and the fact that 6 different civilizations wrote about it makes it seem more authentic than most happenings in historical books, doesnt it?Gnosisquest
Julio; did it not occur to you that what all of this actually proves is that people all through the ages have invented explanations to fill their gaps in knowledge?
The Israelites did not write down anything until after they had access to the "Babylonia" written by Berossus about 275 BCE. The other tales of explanation were not fact, it is doubtful that any of the Greeks or Egyptians for example believed these tales of flood.
When Mohammed composed his version of the Gods and legends about thirteen hundred years ago he just rewrote the Judaic legends to suit himself.
There is nothing divine in either Judaism or Christianity or Islam. If you want to see something there which is divine try placing a mirror over the page.
Ras
juliocstryfe
I see no proof for, nor against it, but the fact that the scientific arguement pushed the date to 10s of millenia later does sepeak out against the writer, doesnt it?
I´m not claiming my faith as a scientific fact, but science isnt going to refute anything by changing dates that have been shown, then saying aha! It happened later.
And again, much of whats in history books have been written from lesser accounts, and the Flood is mentioned too often not to have happened, unless scientists can prove 100% that there wasnt any flood, ever, the subject of the arc remains in science like the existence of god.
Nobody can prove he exists, nobody can porve he doesnt exist.
*shrugs*.. anyway, great conversation mate.Gnosisquest
To me, as tsunamis have happened all over the world at different times in history there is a very simple explanation for the flood stories. It is not often that a supernatural story supersedes a natural explanation; as a matter of fact I have yet to see it happen.
The difference between science and religion is that scientists alter the story to accommodate the evidence; not the evidence to accommodate the story.
Ras - smrohitsm
I am not a firm believer of religious books. I like to look at it from a technical and historical point of view. But somehow I believe about the world wide floods thingy being true. As simply too many cultures have mentioned it in their books.
Even ancient hindu texts also mention such a flood, but dont talk about any ennormous boat or something. I think the boat theory is an exageration of some real life event. May be some guy must have made a boat that was huge by the standards of those times. And he must have saved some community with it.
One thing to be known about religious texts is that, they usually talk about what some real life events seemed like to the writer. For instance, in the hindu epic Ramayane, it is written that Lord Ram fights the moster Ravan in the sky. I think they must have fought on some elevated ground and the writer has only written his feelings about how it seeme dto him.
I beleive in Jesus being able to cure people without giving any medicine. As we have an alternate method of treatment called "Pranic Healing" in India. I works without any physical contact betwen the healer and the patient. Also no medice is involved. May be Jesus was a pranic healer. The evidence of its working can be seen with people being Healed.
So I think instead of dismissing religious text as myth. We must first understand them. May be the events really took place, But they are just exagerated by the writers. To understand the reality, you must first beleive its true, then if possible refute it with contradiction theory.
All the best.Gnosisquest
There is absolutely good reasons to look deeper into these ancient tales in order to picture what the ancients were attempting to relate.
When it comes to the universal flood stories I am convinced that these were different stories about tsunamis and other flooding occurring at different times in history. One other advantage to this belief is that I do not have to explain where all this water went after the flood was over.
Best regardsw ras - tarachand
As time progresses, the size of the universe, of mans envirnoment keeps on increasing. There was a time when the knowledge of the known world was limited - Even Africa was quite unexplored. Then came discoveries of America, Australia, other lands, the size of humanity's environment expanded, till today we find that we are just a small obscure planet revolving around a small obscure star which is placed in an obscure arm of its galaxy, which itself is obscure within it's cluster......
What I am trying to say is that for the peoples of long ago, the world may have been limited to a small island, which was once flooded...... and to them it was the flooding of their entire world. 40 days of rain could also be explained by distortions due to the stoties being told and retold....
It would be easier to collect the vsisible animals in an island than those present all over the world....
The story of flood is found in many religions and regions, even the Matsya and many other Purans and scriptures (Hinduism) speak of Narayan taking the avatar of a huge fish - the ship was tied to the horn of the fish with a mighty serpant serving as a rope, the fish sheltered the ship that was quite dwarfed by it's (the fishes) size....Gnosisquest
Yes Tarachand your observations are well founded. I have no problem with legends, fables and myths; what I have a problem with is when these are taught children as facts and children are even punished when questioning these fables.
Best regards ras - LightninStrike
wow gnosis, this series of posts about religion are incredible...they confront sacred texts with reality and at least it makes you think a bit, to both believers and non believers.
Obviously all about the ark etc is a fable, nobody would give that story any credit from a rational point of view, at least the way it's told in the bible. Once again, there is nothing wrong with the fables, except when you back up your dogmas with the literal words of the bible.
Gnosisquest
Thank you Lightning:
Ras - funfreak2k2
You said the boat would tear apart and it cant withstand the 40-day rain and the flood. you believe it or not, the boat still exists in russia, the siberia region. of course i dont properly remember the exact region, but it still is in russia. many pilots have claimed that they have seen the boat struck in the snow mountains. this is a verifiable fact.
you are true that a boat would tear apart into pieces and i say, God's help is beyond any reason or physical laws.
cartoons do teach children in a different wayThomas73
1. The Ark is supposed to have landed on Mount Ararat, in Turkey.
2. If such a ship was still intact, corroborating the legend, the whole world would know about it.
What will you come up with next? That the tower of Babel has been spotted by pilots flying over the Bermuda triangle? Don't confuse figments of your imagination with reality, please. - Adrenochrome
I believe, if my memory serves me well, that tests carried out around the Middle East have detected evidence that the 'world' (as the Sumerians would have regarded it, though geographically from the Meditarranean to the West, Gulf to the East, Himalayas/Urals to the North, and sea to the South) occured circa 4000BC.
I believe that there is also a theory that the Sumerian Gods (Nephilim - who strangely reappeared, and then disappeared during Christian texts in the Middle Ages, when the social pecking order of Angels was established, then abolished, hence, Archangels, Seraphim, Cherubim etc)fell out with each other regarding humankind. We were bred to serve the Nephilim, just as we bred oxen and horses for such service. Some of the Nephilim felt we deserved freedom, and would still work for them if treated benevolently. Others wished for the status quo to be maintained. Following a war which resulted in the flood, and almost all human life being destroyed, the benevolent Nephilim re-bred us using a female Nephilim to bear the children, so we are all descendants of the Nephilim, and all Gods children.
I, of course, believe that the flood was simply due to glacial erosion, the world coming out of its Ice Age, the glaciers reaching back over the Northern mountain ranges, and, as the Med is little more than a gigantic lake (bottle-necked at Gibraltar), the land could not drain quickly enough. Very scientific, though I confess that I feel the Sumerian story to be much more dramatic and romantic.
I notice that for all his sailing, Noah supposedly only trabelled a couple of hundred miles. How the Bible would have seemed different if he'd landed in Canada!
Religion does not enrich life, especially when used to end life and fight wars, but, psychology, it can help some people justify their impoverished and hard lives, hoping for the rewards in Heaven that life will inevitably not supply.Gnosisquest
Seeking real answers to whom and what we are could give us all the support we need.
The belief in fables and other people's wishful thinking and basing life on this puts the entire human race at risk.
Ras
Adrenochrome (736) ranked 865 out of 6,244 in religion 4 years ago
I agree, and feel that the ambition of leaving the world in a fit state for future generations is a worthy enough justification for existence. - flowerchilde
Noah spent one hundred years building that boat! and remember the animals of the time would be less than today.. as now we have the many separated traits as kinds and breeds.. That's all I know.. three decks (layers) and a hundred years.. and "pitched inside and out" - doesn't sound illogical to me. It also says "it rained for forty days and forty nights" and "the fountains of the deep flowed" as in artesian? Lots of power surely, but totally typhoonish.. I don't see that.. I do think however that it left much debris, aged it, and formed the sediment layer the evolutionists have been so fixated on..
I believe the Giza pyramid is pre-deluge.. along with the sphinx.. but that's just my own thought..Gnosisquest
Why even consider the biblical account; there is a nearly exact copy written 3000 years earlier which was copied by Babylonians which was copied by the Israelites. Defending the biblical fable makes no more sense than defending Aesop's fables or other allegories misconstrued in later ages.
Ras
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